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long gun problems

5K views 36 replies 16 participants last post by  RookieTrainer 
#1 · (Edited)
okay so i finally finished my homemade wingers and took them out to train. my mistake was thinking that because we had worked on doubles i could set up a mock derby marking situation. big mistake and i know it. in the past we've trained with a group that primarily runs hunt tests so all the multiple marks are within 25 yard distance or so within each other and not too far off of each other. or if i had a helper id have them throw two dummies simulating a down the shore scenario on a treeline etc. so while i had one winger finished i worked on distance till i could get more finished. he was marking 275-300 yard singles pretty dang good.

so saturday i went out put wingers at 250 at about 2o'clock from the mat. throwing right to left. and then another winger at 125 at about 10.5 o'clock from the mat throwing right to left. kind of like i saw in the 1st series of a derby recently. planned on running as singles first then reloading them and run as double took the dog out used the car as a holding blind. to simulate actual scenario. then walked up sat on the mat. went through the routine of showing the guns. i planned on showing him the long gun first then the short gun. then back to long gun to throw the mark. couldnt even get him to look at long mark as soon as he came up he was locked in on short station. heeled him away and while he was heeling correctly body wise his head was still locked in over at the short station. i tried everything i knew walk off walk back up heeling on other side. finally put the dog up and took up short winger and just worked on long singles till i could get more advice

the only things i could think of were this: add stickmen although the wingers are made of pvc and clearly white. i had planned on this eventually just waiting to let the wife get over sticker shock of wingers first. but it seems that once i pulled short mark he keyed in on the long one fine so im not convinced that will do it. second thing was maybe this is something wagon wheel will fix? isnt wagon wheel supposed to get the dog looking out straight from where he's heeled? im just through swim by so ive got a ways to go before that comes up in TRT.

sadly the 4 derbies we planned on running in april and may are probably out of the question till we get this resolved (glad i didnt enter or book hotel yet) hopefully when fall season gets around we can run derbies and quals till he ages out next march
 
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#2 · (Edited)
well i may have found the answer maybe not. took a potty break so i grabbed the lardy manual volume 3. read the teaching doubles section. he mentioned the bird in mouth which we've done. opposite sided marks (12 and 6)which we've done he mentioned put memory mark closer in relation to the go bird. but he has had these scenarios before like i said. hes had a 100 yard memory at 1 oclock shooting right to left and 75 yard go bird at 10 o clock shooting left to right. just not a "classic derby double" like lardy mentions not to make your first double. i was thinking we were past our first double thats why i set it up.

forgot to mention that my first inkling after the dilemma was to run short bird then do a bird in mouth for long bird. but i decided against it thinking well hed get the mark and expect another one from it because the winger would still be out there. so i just did the singles like i mentioned earlier
 
#3 ·
Slow down. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is a Derby dog.
Very few dogs are ready for Derby at 12 months even with experienced trainers.
Cant diagnose a dog via the internet, but live gunners are invaluable when working on gunner recognition concepts

Good Luck & Enjoy the Ride
 
#4 ·
Slow down. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is a Derby dog.
Very few dogs are ready for Derby at 12 months even with experienced trainers.
Cant diagnose a dog via the internet, but live gunners are invaluable when working on gunner recognition concepts

Good Luck & Enjoy the Ride
My thoughts exactly. Nothing worked better for my pup than having someone in the field that could wave their arms, yell hup, whatever. Sounds to me like you're trying to do this all alone. Find a training group, local pro, etc.
 
#5 ·
training groups around here focus more on HRC so they do more of the hidden gun stuff. obviously these are valuable tools but most of my training will focus on field trials and gunners. i still train with them but trying to make the transition over and right now it is alone
 
#9 ·
Coop them . I help you you help me. Have them standout or stand by the wingers. You need one long mark as a punch bird. Ask them to give at least hey hey before the winger is launched. Don't try white coats with them, you will get some flack with that one. Instead use your wingers. Reverse the order, cookie cutter tests, long bird as the go bird to the rehearsal, long bird as a single, then repeat as a double, with long as the memory. I have trained with HRC people many times, most of the time will accommodate you, although get used to some ribbing. My group got Evan to put on a Seminar and they now use white coats sometimes and have at least an understanding.. Don't try to change anyone or convert , use what you need, discard what you don't. You can't train derby dogs to be competitive at young age without people. A derby career last about six months , 18 to 24 months old. Sure there are exceptions have placed them at nine months, but, not without creating problems. You need the excitement level of groups.
 
#6 ·
My field trial experience is minimal so take this FWIW. As has already been mentioned, I think you need a bird boy. Put your wife/child/buddy or neighborhood kid on a four wheeler. Take a bunch of plastic fence posts, coat hangers and old t-shirts and place them in configurations. Preferably where dog has to look past a short stickman to see the long marks. Give the kid a radio and send him to each stickman. At first this will require noise, movement, shots or all of the above to focus on the long mark. After a day or two the dog will start looking for the kid. Then go back to the wingers as the short gun and your helpful birdboy as the long gun. At the same time in the yard do here/heel drills such as wagon wheel.

Judging by your earlier threads, you have a large group of "buddies" that love to hunt in the timber with you. May be time for a little payback.:cool: Most young men would trade a few afternoons on a four wheeler throwing birds for a chance to kill ducks in the green timber. If I was closer, I would put my name in the hat.
 
#7 ·
So you didn't have a stickman or anything at the long station? Hang a white t-shirt on the winger at least. Wingers are already harder to pick out than people even with the white shirt. Something that's obvious to you might not be so obvious to the dog.
 
#8 ·
What Charles said. Also you can stick a chair out there, and have it wear a white shirt (slip shirt over back of chair).

In training with a group, in a situation like you describe the gunner would do something to get the dog's attention so that it will swing off the short gun, like wave arms or hey-hey it. If you are using remote release electronics with sound, use it. A quack or beep might get the dog's attention.

Baby steps, make it simple till dog figures it out. Move up till dog can pick out the gun...

Have you tried asking your group for help? You throw for them, they throw for you...
 
#10 ·
I think wingers are WAY different than real people...

If it were me,(actually it is, I am having same problem) I would shorten everything up, and teach the concept first, then as the the dog understands with short set ups, gradually add distance..
I hang a white shirt on both my wingers... Recently though, a person had stickmen from Butch green, that we had in the ground at the wingers. THAT made a difference for my dog.

Also, MY dog has MAJOR trouble seeing a bumper come out of a winger. I believe it comes out WAY to fast. Much faster than a hand thrown bird travels..
I put streamers, Changed colors(Black to white, white to black) and she still had trouble.
By shortening up the set ups, and getting her use to watching closely for the bumper, she has improved some, but I think wingers are very different for a dog to mark..

Gooser
 
#11 ·
What Earl said. Plus, when you train, shoot a lot of long bird singles, with the short bird out - so that the dog understands that he may not get a short bird. Also, shoot flyer at long station - maybe use a big white chicken. Make the long bird exciting.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Our group uses bumper boys so no ones really out there bird boy wise. Don't get me wrong they'd do it in a heart beat its just more of a "I don't want to disrupt the flow thing". When they've got a triple set up with longest bird at 125 I don't want to say hey my dogs coming up can you run out there 300 yards and you run out there 150 and throw these.

I'm going to try the t shirt thing even though the wingers are solid white pvc. I do have a siren on the wingers but the sound did not draw his attention off the short bird. So should I walk up to where we are even with the short bird and throw the long one then retreat back to the mat and throw the short bird? Or should I bring the long one in closer say 50 yards further than short bird and run the setup then gradually back it up?
 
#13 · (Edited)
Our group uses bumper boys so no ones really out there bird boy wise. I'm going to try the t shirt thing even though the wingers are solid white pvc. I do have a siren on the wingers but the sound did not draw his attention off the short bird. So should I walk up to where we are even with the short bird and throw the long one then retreat back to the mat and throw the short bird? Or should I bring the long one in closer say 50 yards further than short bird and run the setup then gradually back it up?
Have them stand by the bumper boys. The long one is your prop. Too much motion going on with walking. If you have a remote that fires a shot, put one long for the shot attention, then fire the winger with the bird. Just trying to brainstorm.
Put one very short, make it look like the long one is reallylong. Just keep brainstorming no pat answer when training alone. You still need excitement of the groups to run the derby!
 
#15 ·
the winger does fire a shot so i'll try that. as for the BBs needing reloading we have 3 12 shooters and 8 dogs so when we set up a drill the only reloading is picking them up for next setup. but i'll see what can be done

but for right now our weekend group is on a hiatus till it warms up and to give the dogs a break from duck season. lasting a little longer than expected. but the head honcho had to put his dog down this winter so i'm guessing he's still dealing with that. we should get cranked up pretty soon. i suspect alot of my prime field trial training though will come during the week though. 6-715 pm
 
#21 ·
I once watched about a dozen people set out Two Max throwers and kinda shook my head. It's the venue I guess. They stand at the line with a remote transmitter , then go out, reset the wingers and start all over again. Geez at least put a person at the winger station. But, I suppose they are having fun critiquing , shooting the bull, the test configuration are silly though in my opinion and some of these folks have been doing dogs for years? To each their own.
 
#17 · (Edited)
What Ken said, maybe run first,then maybe another time run last. If you have at least two or three run last after they get what they want. The area all scented up helps with young dog. HRC folks don't seem around here anyway to use a lot of birds in training? They do now! You at some point are going to have to use birds, at least simulated flyers shooting dead birds from a winger in lieu of flyers. We have all been in your shoes from time to time with limited resources, I know I have. Thats where the pros are at a advantage, sometimes, people, birds, set ups, many dog scents with many dogs, grounds, you have to improvise and adapt, someone said that? You can overcome if you work hard and are creative . Drag a bird around the area towards the hunt with a S pattern so not a direct line. Buy the Gunz Up tape as a example to play during training use multiple holding blinds, use a mat, shout cadence in the holding blind, guns up dog to the line, etc. Stay in holding blind, someone fire a blank pistol before you come out, saying dog to the line etc, etc.
Practice no birds, throw bird, dog doesn't get retrieve, go back in holding blind start all over again. Probably preaching to choir, but, others read these threads too.
 
#22 ·
everyone in your group is missing out by not using live people at the gun stations instead of machines. If you had live guns
- the long gun could move around, yell, shoot his gun multiple times, throw multiple birds, etc. to get your dog to focus on long gun,
- if your dog breaks down going to the long gun, the gunner can shoot and throw

you lose so much versatility with the machines
 
#23 · (Edited)
Criquetpas is spot on. granted i enjoy shooting the bull too and being able to ask questions as to why one handler did this etc. the very very few times we've used birds there was always the struggle to get a hand thrown just right etc. i think someone had an accident there with a winger in the past so they stay away from those. i think they all own a set just dont use them ever.

plus with 2 inexperienced owners in the group we can use all the help from the gallery we can get. it seems with the HRC groups i've been with there is no real reason to have a person at the station as in the tests the person is always hid behind a blind and is only there to set the winger off?

ted-i think the counterpoint to your argument is that because of the extra bumpers if a dog gets in trouble you first do the quack sound. then if that doesnt get them into the area of the fall you shoot off another bumper. while i agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments this is what the answer would probably be
 
#25 · (Edited)
I bought my first winger from John Parrot in 1995. I have seen and had many pups do exactly like yours did. When they won't look out past the short bird,. Move up! Right then and there. At some point the setup will be wide enough that the suction from the short bird can be overcome. You might have to move up so the short station is actually behind you but at some point you'll be close enough to the long station that the dog will see it. Then shoot it off and have the dog retrieve the single. Sit the dog, go reload the long bird. Generally, I'll move back enough to get the short gun in the picture and shoot it off as a single. Then repeat the long one as a single. Reload, I might move further back and repeat as two singles or I may do them as a double, depends on the what the dog did and the mental make up of the dog. Repeat in other places often. There will come a time when your dog will be looking out for the long station. During this stage of their development I'll shoot off the long bird and pick it up as a single first before I do anything else. This kind of gets the dog anticipating getting the long bird and will help the dog not head swing as it continues it's training.

You'll have to adjust the distance and tightness of the marks to the dog's understanding of the concept but having a dog work with you on the line picking out the gunners is a vital skill in field trial dogs and something you have to emphasize, especially in young dog training.

I have literally walked up to within 50 yards of a 200 yard mark with a puppy. They absolutely KNOW where the bird will come from and it isn't anywhere near where I am trying to get them to look. It's kind funny to see that eureka moment when they realize a bird can come from somewhere else.
 
#30 ·
I think Howard is saying what I tried to. What I would do is start at the mat, try and get dog to pick out gunner. If fail, move up aways, try again. Keep moving up till you can get dog to look at the gunner.

My understanding is that the bird in mouth is to help with the mechanics of teaching a double. But what it sounds like your dog needs to learn is look for multiple guns in the field.
 
#31 ·
blake,
lots of good advice here. also imho, i would suggest that you not bother showing your young dog the short gun at all. come out of the holding blind and show the dog the long gun only. the dog will usually have no trouble if you ease back a little pulling or if you ease forward a little pushing to see a short gun after they watch the long bird down.

blake, i watched a small crew of my subcontractors pour and finish 300 yards of concrete one day recently. they made it look so easy i told my mom i wouldn't mind doing her 3 yard patio and walk myself. it almost killed me. the competitors in that central arkansas derby you went to see were made up of many time nat open and nat am qualifiers, a nat open winner, some guys who have made multiple fc afc dogs, some of the south's top young dog pros and very respected amatuer handlers/trainers. they make it look easy at the trial. their dogs make it look easy at the trial.

you have a nice dog and can likely be competitive but you still gotta do the hard work all those guys who made it look easy already did. remember, you are looking for small, almost imperceptable, incremental gains in performance daily. focus on the four derbies you want to run next spring. this is like timber hunting in bayou meto, to quote my buddy blake, "if you don't know where the holes are you won't be successful and will just make it a long day for everyone else.";-)
 
#32 ·
There have been some great suggestions. Unless I missed it seems singles off multiple guns has been left out. Stick men will be the cheapest training equipment you make. Plastic fence post from tractor supply 1.99 and a t shirt on a hanger attached to the top. It's good to have a helper when you start but sound on electronics will work. Make at least 5 stick men. My favorite on focusing on gun stations is the w configuration. Setting up short stations at 50 and long at 100. You can also do the Christmas tree set up or double hip pocket. I train alone most of the time but have found using wingers and stick men I can teach a lot.
 
#33 ·
There have been some great suggestions. Unless I missed it seems singles off multiple guns has been left out. Stick men will be the cheapest training equipment you make. Plastic fence post from tractor supply 1.99 and a t shirt on a hanger attached to the top. It's good to have a helper when you start but sound on electronics will work. Make at least 5 stick men. My favorite on focusing on gun stations is the w configuration. Setting up short stations at 50 and long at 100. You can also do the Christmas tree set up or double hip pocket. I train alone most of the time but have found using wingers and stick men I can teach a lot.

...Bonjour.... :cool:
post 14
 
#34 · (Edited)
Blake, I had the same problem this past weekend at our first Derby. Dog wouldn't look away from giant "live flier station" to the long memory bird. Got lots of great advice and today we did our first training session on it.

I'm a newb, so you get what you pay for, but it really worked well:

Summary: start long gun singles close in and gradually move gunner back, with short station staying the same.

1) Right side of field set up big short station: in my case = two folding chairs with a white towel and a broom set upright with a white shirt waving in the breeze. A small cat crate with 2 pigeons in it and a few duck decoys for good measure. station was 50 yds from line over to the right at a tight angle to where the marks were to be thrown. I let dog sniff bird crate and check out the station first.

2)Left side of field, I set up my gunner about 5-10 yds further back from flier station but on the right. Mark was thrown angle back to land in middle between left station and gunner. After retrieve, put dog in holding blind and moved gunner back 40 yards. Ran mark. Dog back in holding blind, gunner moved back another 40 yds. I brought dog to line, made her stay on mat while I ran out and shook the bird crate and made a commotion. Came back to line and focused her on long gun and ran her. She got mark, but was a bit distracted by bird station on way out.

Tomorrow, we'll pick a different field and do a similar set up with more difficulty.
 
#35 ·
As an extension of Blake's question, how would the more experienced folks here approach the walk to the line given that the dog has shown a propensity to lock onto the short gun? And is there anything you can realistically do along those lines to get the dog's focus off the flyer crate?
 
#36 ·

My 10 year old FC's always looked for the flyer before looking at the other guns. They know where the action is.

Yes, you can come out of the holding blind from the side farthest from the flyer. And you can make them stop and try to get them to focus on other guns. But, if you make too big an issue of it, you sometimes create a bigger issue.

You simply need to work on getting them to see guns in addition to the flyer. Do the drills mentioned here. In addition, when you throw the long single with a short gun out, and the dog never looks at the long bird, you may want to send the dog immediately. When it screws up, correct with a nick, then start over.

Head swinging (fixating on the short gun) is something all dogs do and need work on most of their lives. Early on, alot. Later, less. It is one of the reasons that singles and drills like the ABC drill need to be part of your training regime)
 
#37 ·
Ted, that's the answer I both expected and feared. It doesn't take them long at all to figure out the flyer crate. My dog and I will be doing these drills ad nauseum, although my dog seems to like the long one more than the short one.
 
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