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Thread: long gun problems

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    If your group has that many people why would you use bumber boys at all the stations? Never undstood why groups would do that.
    I once watched about a dozen people set out Two Max throwers and kinda shook my head. It's the venue I guess. They stand at the line with a remote transmitter , then go out, reset the wingers and start all over again. Geez at least put a person at the winger station. But, I suppose they are having fun critiquing , shooting the bull, the test configuration are silly though in my opinion and some of these folks have been doing dogs for years? To each their own.
    Earl Dillow

  2. #22
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    everyone in your group is missing out by not using live people at the gun stations instead of machines. If you had live guns
    - the long gun could move around, yell, shoot his gun multiple times, throw multiple birds, etc. to get your dog to focus on long gun,
    - if your dog breaks down going to the long gun, the gunner can shoot and throw

    you lose so much versatility with the machines
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  3. #23
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    Criquetpas is spot on. granted i enjoy shooting the bull too and being able to ask questions as to why one handler did this etc. the very very few times we've used birds there was always the struggle to get a hand thrown just right etc. i think someone had an accident there with a winger in the past so they stay away from those. i think they all own a set just dont use them ever.

    plus with 2 inexperienced owners in the group we can use all the help from the gallery we can get. it seems with the HRC groups i've been with there is no real reason to have a person at the station as in the tests the person is always hid behind a blind and is only there to set the winger off?

    ted-i think the counterpoint to your argument is that because of the extra bumpers if a dog gets in trouble you first do the quack sound. then if that doesnt get them into the area of the fall you shoot off another bumper. while i agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments this is what the answer would probably be
    Last edited by blake_mhoona; 03-25-2013 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    ....it seems with the HRC groups i've been with there is no real reason to have a person at the station as in the tests the person is always hid behind a blind and is only there to set the winger off?....
    the real reason is to help train your dog. you are dog training, not dog testing.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    I bought my first winger from John Parrot in 1995. I have seen and had many pups do exactly like yours did. When they won't look out past the short bird,. Move up! Right then and there. At some point the setup will be wide enough that the suction from the short bird can be overcome. You might have to move up so the short station is actually behind you but at some point you'll be close enough to the long station that the dog will see it. Then shoot it off and have the dog retrieve the single. Sit the dog, go reload the long bird. Generally, I'll move back enough to get the short gun in the picture and shoot it off as a single. Then repeat the long one as a single. Reload, I might move further back and repeat as two singles or I may do them as a double, depends on the what the dog did and the mental make up of the dog. Repeat in other places often. There will come a time when your dog will be looking out for the long station. During this stage of their development I'll shoot off the long bird and pick it up as a single first before I do anything else. This kind of gets the dog anticipating getting the long bird and will help the dog not head swing as it continues it's training.

    You'll have to adjust the distance and tightness of the marks to the dog's understanding of the concept but having a dog work with you on the line picking out the gunners is a vital skill in field trial dogs and something you have to emphasize, especially in young dog training.

    I have literally walked up to within 50 yards of a 200 yard mark with a puppy. They absolutely KNOW where the bird will come from and it isn't anywhere near where I am trying to get them to look. It's kind funny to see that eureka moment when they realize a bird can come from somewhere else.
    Last edited by Howard N; 03-25-2013 at 01:09 PM.
    Howard Niemi

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    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I bought my first winger from John Parrot in 1995. I have seen and had many pups do exactly like yours did. When they won't look out past the short bird,. Move up! Right then and there. At some point the setup will be wide enough that the suction from the short bird can be overcome. You might have to move up so the short station is actually behind you but at some point you'll be close enough to the long station that the dog will see it. Then shoot it off and have the dog retrieve the single. Sit the dog, go reload the long bird. Generally, I'll move back enough to get the short gun in the picture and shoot it off as a single. Then repeat the long one as a single. Reload, I might move further back and repeat as two singles or I may do them as a double, depends on the what the dog did and the mental make up of the dog. Repeat in other places often. There will come a time when your dog will be looking out for the long station. During this stage of their development I'll shoot off the long bird and pick it up as a single first before I do anything else. This kind of gets the dog anticipating getting the long bird and will help the dog not head swing as it continues it's training.

    You'll have to adjust the distance and tightness of the marks to the dog's understanding of the concept but having a dog work with you on the line picking out the gunners is a vital skill in field trial dogs and something you have to emphasize, especially in young dog training.

    I have literally walked up to within 50 yards of a 200 yard mark with a puppy. They absolutely KNOW where the bird will come from and it isn't anywhere near where I am trying to get them to look. It's kind funny to see that eureka moment when they realize a bird can come from somewhere else.
    thanks that was kind of my dilema. i didnt know whether to keep the setup the same and walk forward. or to bring long in till he recognized it and work it back. i'll do the former

  7. #27
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    thanks that was kind of my dilema. i didnt know whether to keep the setup the same and walk forward. or to bring long in till he recognized it and work it back. i'll do the former
    You do both. You move up until he recognizes it and then move back after he knows where it is with the single. You want him to learn that birds can come from several places in the field and you'll help him pick out where those places are.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    You do both. You move up until he recognizes it and then move back after he knows where it is with the single. You want him to learn that birds can come from several places in the field and you'll help him pick out where those places are.
    the second scenario what i meant to say was. if it'd be better to stay on the mat and just move memory mark in 100 or so yards and slowly move it back out till you get back to original setup. but you'd still be running a double.

    im gonna go with first scenario where i move in and run singles bird in mouth style while backing up to the mat (gradually) till short bird is in view and can run as doubles


    quick questions to anyone: i think i'm going to go with the magee products stickmen (2) as i'm just about tired of DIY projects and they seem to be reasonably priced. A) what reason would someone get the white stickman with black diamond? contrast maybe? B) eventually when we get to that level will the retired gunner product work on a homemade pvc (kwik design) winger?

  9. #29
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    Black is for when white does not show up, for example if the background is white (overcast sky or snow) black will give you more contrast. We used black in the winter here.
    Renee P

  10. #30
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    I think Howard is saying what I tried to. What I would do is start at the mat, try and get dog to pick out gunner. If fail, move up aways, try again. Keep moving up till you can get dog to look at the gunner.

    My understanding is that the bird in mouth is to help with the mechanics of teaching a double. But what it sounds like your dog needs to learn is look for multiple guns in the field.
    Renee P

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