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Thread: Drills for Land Cheating?

  1. #11
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    .....In reality Copterdoc exagerated the line to demonstrate his point,....
    Highly exaggerated.

    If red line was really that bad, I wouldn't be doing complex cheaters with that dog yet.
    If purple line was that bad, I went way overkill on previous simple cheaters.

  2. #12
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Mary Lynn, put yourself in the mind of the dog as you trace those routes. Following the red line you can see that at every point he had to make a decision between getting in the water or avoiding it, he or she choose land. If you were handling that dog you would handle with or without a correction at each of those points. The purple line dog chose wisely, you let him go even if he overdoes the good with too much water. The OP's dog is at a stage where he is too watery, the challenge there is to let him know it is ok to ease up a little on that waterness without teaching a bad habit. It is all about reading your dog and trying to maintain balance.

    John

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Okay I got it. Took me a bit. Thank you both!
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    I don't think you're being fair to the dog. The dog is trying to be a good dog and do what he was trained to do. Now you're trying to train for just the opposite and you'll be confusing the dog. But if you’re going to try it. I would do it as cheaty blind then change the blinds to marks. No pressure, at all. I would use attrition. And I would use white stake blinds to straighten the dog out.
    But in the long run I believe you're going to create confusion in the dog because now he has to make choice water or land? He may get confused to the point that he starts popping on marks and looking for you to help him out. That would be worse than taking too much water.
    As for the diagram it's very nice, but I don't know too many people with access to tech water like that.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Yes you read it right, I have a land cheating dog, it's almost like she programed to find any body of water. I'll agree 80% of the time it is better to have a dog in the water, however I want to tighten up her lines, and her land avoidance is causing me headaches. On long entries, she hits the water too soon, on shore-line marks she has a tendency to get fat, and she feels the need to hit any pond that might be anywhere in the vicinity of the line to a mark. The correction aspect is an issue as well give her a nick anywhere close and she's in the water, seems like I've been zapping her in mid-air , but she's just not getting the connection, just pushes her into the water faster. Look for suggestion to keep her on land.
    I would be glad your dog is making an effort to be good. Tuneup drills without collar corrections might make him more comfortable with fine angle entries.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    For a young dog I'd agree, water good. This is a 5yr. MH who just JAMMed her first Qual, however caving to water took us out of placement. A long water entry where she was supposed to run pass the 1st pond, then angle the second & corner touch the third pond. She caved to the water, hit the first pond, went fat into the 2nd, adjusted to the bird in the 3rd, came back the same way. Most other dogs cheated the water, we went significantly fat. It's an issue that needs to be addressed on her marks if we wish to continue in the FT game, only way I can think to do it is, reverse water de-cheating, however it's competing with normal training, of take the water.

    I agree that safety in the water was an issue, used to be if she got wet she shrinks and could pinch off the collar, we've adjusted for that. Still competing with that ghost.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 03-27-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    For a young dog I'd agree, water good. This is a 5yr. MH who just JAMMed her first Qual, however caving to water took us out of placement. A long water entry where she was supposed to run pass the 1st pond, then angle the second & corner touch the third pond. She caved to the water, hit the first pond, went fat into the 2nd, adjusted to the bird in the 3rd, came back the same way Most other dogs cheated the water, we went significantly fat. It's an issue that needs to be addressed on her marks if we wish to continue in the FT game, only way I can think to do it is, reverse water de-cheating, however it's competing with normal training, of take the water.
    I get it, but I still wouldn't put pressure on it. Sombody mentioned tune-up drills, that is an excellent idea as are Chinese drills. I also mentioned sight blinds across water at finer and finer lines with the last down the shore not getting in the water. When your dog starts to bail in early, stop and cast down the shore. Once in the water and you need to tighten up to shore, use a softer whistle and very slow, easy, walking angle cast toward shore. The harder or louder the cast the more the dog will drive away from shore. This is very similar to teaching an "easy" check-down bird. Remove all pressure and ease the dog into it.

    Also a five year old MH just starting all age work is still a young dog. Many field trial dogs that ran FTs their whole life are just getting it at that age.

    John

  8. #18
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    You asked about drills; you could set up a series a marked blinds on the far side of a small pond, where the dog takes a finer and finer line across the pond with the last blind being down the shore without getting in.
    We've done this 5pt drill, angles across the pond crossing dikes etc. Not an issue as long as she's in the water, but I could set it up as angles across land, last 2 taking a sliver of water than an angle entry. That might work, I shall try it.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
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  9. #19
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    For a young dog I'd agree, water good. This is a 5yr. MH who just JAMMed her first Qual, however caving to water took us out of placement. A long water entry where she was supposed to run pass the 1st pond, then angle the second & corner touch the third pond. She caved to the water, hit the first pond, went fat into the 2nd, adjusted to the bird in the 3rd, came back the same way. Most other dogs cheated the water, we went significantly fat. It's an issue that needs to be addressed on her marks if we wish to continue in the FT game, only way I can think to do it is, reverse water de-cheating, however it's competing with normal training, of take the water.

    I agree that safety in the water was an issue, used to be if she got wet she shrinks and could pinch off the collar, we've adjusted for that. Still competing with that ghost.
    Wow, that seems like a pretty extreme Qualifying test, plus, though the laser line to the bird may have been as you described, that has little to do with marking the bird. I assume four other dogs took great lines and didn't hunt the bird to have placed ahead of your dog. One caveat on my "no pressure" approach, if you see her heading fat and stop her to handle away from water, it would be fair to correct for the cast refusal.

  10. #20
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    I have the perfect solution to your problem. Let me train your dog. All of mine cheat the water and it shouldn't take much of my program to produce a perfect balance.

    Wish I had this problem or the technical water in the sketches
    Mark Land

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