The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: Drills for Land Cheating?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    2,053

    Default Drills for Land Cheating?

    Yes you read it right, I have a land cheating dog, it's almost like she programed to find any body of water. I'll agree 80% of the time it is better to have a dog in the water, however I want to tighten up her lines, and her land avoidance is causing me headaches. On long entries, she hits the water too soon, on shore-line marks she has a tendency to get fat, and she feels the need to hit any pond that might be anywhere in the vicinity of the line to a mark. The correction aspect is an issue as well give her a nick anywhere close and she's in the water, seems like I've been zapping her in mid-air , but she's just not getting the connection, just pushes her into the water faster. Look for suggestion to keep her on land.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
    "I train dogs, Not papers"

    GMRH-I HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
    MHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    HR Storm.. the Pup (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)

  2. #2
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    Instead of correcting the dog for doing what you just trained it to do, set up complex cheaters so that the dog learns to balance itself.

    The idea is, that when the dog is too safe on the initial entry, it sets itself up for a tighter cheat on the re-entry.


  3. #3
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bigfork, Montana
    Posts
    3,474

    Default

    I wouldn't call it land cheating as much as trying to avoid pressure by going where he feels safe. I don't know your dog and it may be the exception, but usually an overly watery dog is a combination of a natural waterness and training, the training has made water the safe place to be. I would work on balance, take all pressure off around water and use drills to make your dog comfortable running down a shoreline without getting in the water. Getting in fat and taking too much water is usually a trait of a young transisition dog, the long fine entries are more an all age refinement that come with experience.

    It's always good to know your dog's tendancies. I have a buddy with a very watery all age dog, I watched him screw his dog up in the fourth series by not trusting his dog. He false lined him into big water, rather than pointing the dog down the shore to the key bird. The dog took the line he was given and made a couragous swim all the way across the water well past the bird. My buddy had chickened out after watching dog after dog cave in and miss the mark, if he had a little faith he could have won that trial.

    John
    Last edited by John Robinson; 03-26-2013 at 05:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bigfork, Montana
    Posts
    3,474

    Default

    You asked about drills; you could set up a series a marked blinds on the far side of a small pond, where the dog takes a finer and finer line across the pond with the last blind being down the shore without getting in.

  5. #5
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    And as far as correcting is concerned, here's an example of two dogs. Red line, and purple line.

    Purple line, was an Angel. He did no wrong.
    Red line, was a vile sinner. Every time he had a choice to make, he chose wrong.



    Now, in real life you are going to get a mix of the two lines.
    The beauty of a complex cheater like these two, is that being too honest in the first pond, makes it more tempting to cheat the second.

    A dog that starts off with the purple line, is far more likely to switch to the red line as it leaves the first pond. And that gives you an opportunity to give a correction that the dog will understand.

    If your dog stays on the purple line, there is nothing to correct! Just keep repeating it, and the dog will gradually correct itself. It will "self-straighten".

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Watford, ONT
    Posts
    3,838

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    And as far as correcting is concerned, here's an example of two dogs. Red line, and purple line.

    Purple line, was an Angel. He did no wrong.
    Red line, was a vile sinner. Every time he had a choice to make, he chose wrong.



    Now, in real life you are going to get a mix of the two lines.
    The beauty of a complex cheater like these two, is that being too honest in the first pond, makes it more tempting to cheat the second.

    A dog that starts off with the purple line, is far more likely to switch to the red line as it leaves the first pond. And that gives you an opportunity to give a correction that the dog will understand.

    If your dog stays on the purple line, there is nothing to correct! Just keep repeating it, and the dog will gradually correct itself. It will "self-straighten".
    Are you saying if he takes the purple line he is good and you don't correct? Why? and should you not help him a little straighten that line out? How is the other line any different than the purple line??? They are both not straight to the blind if that is the yellow line??? So I am confused and lost???
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA

    HR Blackie 2 CGN, WCI

    Metras's Hashtag Mickey

  7. #7
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    Are you saying if he takes the purple line he is good and you don't correct? Why? and should you not help him a little straighten that line out? How is the other line any different than the purple line??? They are both not straight to the blind if that is the yellow line??? So I am confused and lost???
    You can only correct for black and white situations.

    Right and wrong.

    In certain situations, we see gray as right.
    Dogs don't. They just see gray.

    To us, the yellow line is right. To a dog, it's just gray.

    But, they can understand that water is black, and land is white. Water is right, and land is wrong.

    So, when the dog chooses water, the dog is right. When the dog chooses land, it is wrong.
    If you correct the dog for choosing right, all you accomplish is confusing the dog.

    Instead, you should let the dog correct itself. By being "too right", it sets itself up to be wrong on the next question.
    That indirectly punishes the dog for going fat on the initial entry.

    By repeating that sequence, rather than trying to correct the dog for taking too much water, the dog learns that gray is what we really want.

  8. #8
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    And ideally, these would be cheating singles. You can certainly run them as blinds though.

  9. #9
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bigfork, Montana
    Posts
    3,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    Are you saying if he takes the purple line he is good and you don't correct? Why? and should you not help him a little straighten that line out? How is the other line any different than the purple line??? They are both not straight to the blind if that is the yellow line??? So I am confused and lost???
    Following up Copterdoc; we are training our dogs to recognize and evaluate situations as they run, then hopefully make the "right" decision. Most dogs tend to want to take the fastest route to the bird, hence they tend to cheat water on the entry and bail out early on the exit, they intuitively understand running on land is faster than swimming. Our challenge is to train them to seek water when they encounter it in route. The dog that took the purple route made the correct decision every time he was encountered with a situation that demanded a decision.

    In training we don't worry about how straight the line is, we are encouraged that the dog is trying so hard to do the right thing, so we praise him and never correct for doing the right thing. In reality Copterdoc exagerated the line to demonstrate his point, the real line would work out much straighter with practice. The point is that, over time, the dog that recognizes situations and makes the correct trained decision will put him or herself in a better position to suceed.
    Last edited by John Robinson; 03-26-2013 at 06:53 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    If you correct red line dog, his lines will improve.

    If you correct purple line dog, you will create new problems, and his lines will get worse.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •