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Flyers at a hunt test

21K views 109 replies 53 participants last post by  Codatango 
#1 ·
I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. what are other clubs doing ?
 
#2 ·
As per the AKC HT Rule book, you do not have to use a live flyer in Junior at all. Most test that I've run had only one flyer for Junior, usually on land.
 
#4 ·
Most have one at best. Force fetch is your friend.
 
#7 ·
The regs require 2 live birds per entry but depending on where you're from that's a rule that is broken more often than not. Nothing about live shot flyers, except at master and senior. Clubs cut back because of the expense, hassle and difficulty of finding bird stewards to acquire, care for and deliver stinking bird crates to all flights. Suggest you let the clubs you might enter know how you feel about having flyers. And I'm sure they'll appreciate your volunteering to throw, shoot, catch up and crate live birds deliver to the various stakes or drive all night to deliver birds for the club.
 
#9 ·
Are you volunteering to pick up the birds in T'vill next week?
 
#8 ·
Since you must be new to the game I will try to help. Birds are around $12-15/bird befor any expenses associated with keeping or transporting them so most are at leat $15 when all is said and done. Most clubs could not put on a test spending $30 per dog on birds (standard is 1.5/dog). You got extremely lucky to have two live birds in a test. I have not seen that in 25 years of running test.
Judges take the lions share of test income, followed by birds. I would be willing to bet you won't see that again.
 
#10 ·
My young dog ran 5 Junior tests last year. We had 1 flier total. And that was UNEXPECTED. They are not required in Junior. You WILL see them in Master. Occasionally you WON'T see them in Senior. Usually on the second day. The last Master test I ran in the fall of last year, we had 3 series, all triples. If I remember right, 1 flier total.

I always have 2 yucky birds frozen in my freezer. You HAVE to train on them as you will see them. You would be amazed at how quickly mouth problems can occur when the see them if they haven't been exposed to them before. I learned that one the hard way. I always do a refresher force fetch session with nasty birds.

Sue Puff
 
#13 ·
Also it is up to the judges if they want to use a flier. Some judges don't like to use fliers in junior. I don't agree with it but they are the judges so they can use the birds how they see fit. It doesn't say because you provide the live birds that they must be used as fliers.

Russell
 
#14 ·
Some judges don't like to use fliers in junior. Russell
Had an experience at a JH last summer where the gunners were very good. Birds taken up close and personal. A couple even had parts fly away at the shot. One head and one wing that I vividly remember. Broken, bloody mess they almost all were. Seems a shame to have newby dogs exposed with the dangers of developing bad habits so tempting. Older dogs fine but that is the reason I prefer not to have live flyers in Junior.
 
#17 ·
Section 2. Game. Pheasants and/or ducks and/or
chukars may be used in AKC-licensed or member club
Hunting Tests, as may any other species of game bird that
might be unique to a specific region. Clubs shall specify in
the premium list the exact species of birds to be used in
their hunting tests.
A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
levels.
At least one live flyer must be used in a Senior or
Master level test unless the use of live ammunition is prohibited by law or policy of the land managing organization
at the testing location. (pg. 19)
http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf

Having live birds available does not necessarily mean live flyer, fresh killed birds should be used. For safety issues or available grounds, judges may opt out of using a flyer for Junior.
 
#23 ·
Section 2. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
levels.
I'm not an AKC judge, but I can read and this is pretty cut and dried to me.
 
#18 ·
I think flyers should be used in one land test and one water test in all stakes. Too many times sinking water logged birds are used in the lesser HT stakes, Junior and senior. The local clubs in our area do tend to use live birds. The only time not to use a flyer would be for a control birds, where it is not safe or practical to use live ammunition.
 
#20 ·
Mike is absolutely correct. And Cindy is also correct that 2 live birds available does not equal 2 flyers (or swimmers, or walkers, etc) for your dog. I attended a seminar with Jerry Mann this last weekend and this EXACT issue was brought up. Brokengunz, if you don't like it, don't agree with it, or don't understand it, I'd suggest you contact Jerry Mann directly (and your regional rep). You're going to get all types of responses on this forum to your question, some correct and some incorrect.
 
#51 ·
Skanky waterlogged half rotten birds should not be used PERIOD!!!!!!
FWIW, Every Jr test I have ever run , in 23 years, has always had AT LEAST ONE live flyer, and many have had two. Sr the same standard.. Master, usually two out of three series.....
 
#24 ·
I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up.
Nowhere in this post do you say anything about frozen, skanky birds being used in this test.
 
#27 ·
No club can exist breaking even on hunt tests or field trials.

Profits have to be made to cover liability insurance, Workman's Comp insurance, dues to national clubs so your placements or passes count, printing, postage and other administrative type expenses, equipment purchases and repair, supplies for marshal boxes, etc. Membership dues just don't cover these expenses.
 
#28 ·
JH tests are the most important event of the weekend in my opinion. Many folks don't share my opinion. The clubs make good money on the tests and if run properly don't lose money. Every JH test should have a flier in both series. If a MH test thinks they need a flier to get answers the judges aren't doing a good job. Most MH pro trained dogs get plenty of fliers and the fliers at a HT are for their egos. JH tests should get two fliers. They are the easiest and least time consuming tests to run on the grounds. JH test require the least amount of resources and the judges are almost alwasy locally available costing the club no money the majority of the time. They are done in a few hours and take up the least amount of resources.

Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH.

When clubs "save" the fliers for the MH dogs who are mostly pro trained and get fliers on a regular basis........it's just another sign of the times. It's not for the betterment of the sport. It's to appease the willy-nilly Master-National weekend test.
 
#30 ·
Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH.
I judged a junior last year where we used a flier in conjunction with the land marks, and then were offered a flier on water, but due to the water we were given plus wind direction it just didn't work so we used two controlled birds on water. I do not find anything wrong with how the rules are presently worded. Give the judges the ability to use two, but if they find that TWO fliers do not work into their scenarios, then so be it. I don't agree however with your rational above. It's not the judges job nor the clubs to set up tests in order to give the dogs test experience. Judges are there to judge each individual dog on that day according to the AKC rules. If handlers choose to come to tests simply to obtain experience with fliers, then that's on them, but no one else should be concerned about whether or not a dog wants/needs multiple fliers simply for their personal experience.
 
#29 ·
our hrc club has not made much money in the last 2 yrs with high bird prices and low seasoned and started entrys. the club members giving uo 2-3 days and doing a lot of work add the price of gas for members to drive it all adds up.i want to thank all the club members every where for doing this. i know this has nothing to do about live flyers but it has a lot to do with how much if any clubs make money and continue to allow us to run our dogs
 
#31 · (Edited)
in my humble and often wrong opinion, ALL stakes should also include a crippled bird, on either land or water. Or both.
(I'm not being serious, I understand it's logistically impossible).
That would tell you which dogs will pick up birds in a realistic situation. It kinda frosts me when people are griping in the gallery that their dog failed because he got a cripple. Seriously? These are hunting retrievers. I always hope for cripples. I offer big tips to the gunners to get me a cripple ;) .
Have seen 1 live flier around here in JH tests, 2 in SH. I think it would be kinda fun to see both fliers in one series.
 
#33 ·
Seriously Brokenguns, if you intend to continue in the retriever games you should resist the urge to whine about the tests and prepare your dog to run.

There will not always be 2 flyers but there WILL ALWAYS BE STINKY RATTY BIRDS.

There are 2 cliches in this game that hold true, "the test is the test, get over it" and "train don't complain"

Bert
 
#36 ·
Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.

I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.

Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.
 
#37 ·
Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.

I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.

Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.
I wish they'd use them on those dang 450 yrd marks! J/K kinda... ;)
 
#58 ·
Happy please help me with the math. Most of us have large Master tests and small juniors. Most of us have travel expenses for all judges. So for me our Master tests have 40-50 dogs and our juniors have 4-25 dogs. Even at 25 dogs my cost for the junior is no where near 1/3 of the master. Judges, birds, and land rent cost the same as other stakes, and we may save a little on hired help on juniors. We charge less for juniors and we make less per dog unless the entry gets close to 35 where it would start to average out.

Don't get me wrong all clubs need to try their hardest to make sure the Junior stake runs smoothly and people and dogs have a great experience.
 
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