I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up. I would think the consensus of handlers would want 2 flyers per event. If the club chooses not to use 2 flyers, say so in the premium, so we can skip that event if inclined to do so. what are other clubs doing ?
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the order of a flyer, particularly in JH. For those just starting to judge, whenever possible, shoot the flyer second. That way, if a JH dog won't pick up a dead bird, you don't waste the flyer. This can be considered in SH too though the order can be more critical than in a JH test.
Boy does this suggestion take the cake. If I drive 400 miles and go out without ever at least getting a look at a flyer for my dog do ya think I'm ever coming back to your test. If so think again.
Paul your math is really bogus and I'll leave it at that. Next year you will fully understand where the money goes and truly how much it costs.
Clay
1/3 is a figure of speach. If you had 4 dogs to run JH, what is the real cost?
HNTFSH, The cost is relavant even if you don't agree. MH test typically has 7-8 wingers tied up at once, all the paid workers, more volunteer effort and it's where all the folks want to sit and watch dogs.
Reducing fliers, not catering to JH / New people is going to really start hurting the sport. Sounds like you club with really low JH entries is seeing the symptoms. I'm very disapointed in the eagerness of clubs to put all the focus on the MH tests which are really pre-MN tests in many places. Folks "say" they don't want to make the weekend tests a mini-Master National except, when it comes to picking judges, what is the most important thing they discuss on the agenda? Having a couple "Master National" judges. THat is a big expense bringing them in from a long distance.
Also, the more MH level dogs run a test, the fewer available volunteers you'll find. That math is very simple.
1/3 is a figure of speach. If you had 4 dogs to run JH, what is the real cost?
HNTFSH, The cost is relavant even if you don't agree. MH test typically has 7-8 wingers tied up at once, all the paid workers, more volunteer effort and it's where all the folks want to sit and watch dogs.
Reducing fliers, not catering to JH / New people is going to really start hurting the sport. Sounds like you club with really low JH entries is seeing the symptoms. I'm very disapointed in the eagerness of clubs to put all the focus on the MH tests which are really pre-MN tests in many places. Folks "say" they don't want to make the weekend tests a mini-Master National except, when it comes to picking judges, what is the most important thing they discuss on the agenda? Having a couple "Master National" judges. THat is a big expense bringing them in from a long distance.
Also, the more MH level dogs run a test, the fewer available volunteers you'll find. That math is very simple.
Fixed cost is relevant, absolutely. Your Don Quixote on the financials part of this thread. The overall costs (and revenues) are distributed across the event.
Now the costs are distributed over the whole event? If clubs want to keep looking at it that way, they can keep wondering why they are losing or, can't make money.
Now the costs are distributed over the whole event? If clubs want to keep looking at it that way, they can keep wondering why they are losing or, can't make money.
We don't lose money. If you believe this firmly that we're all idiots in this test/cost thing perhaps you can educate us with providing a balance sheet for costs/revenues and stated Premiums for each stake based on some general entrant assumptions.
Happy- I'm not saying that you diminish the importance of a junior stake, but I don't believe you "cater" to it either. As a club (IMO) you strive to put on stakes at all levels that are good tests for the dogs at that level. This encompasses all aspects of a test from parking to keeping dogs in holding blinds to the marks themselves and even the ribbon ceremony after. Whether those tests involve 1 or 2 fliers is all dependent on the club, entries, judges and grounds available. Would it be nice to have 2 fliers at a junior...heck ya, but it's not always feasible. So with that in mind, if you expect to see 2 fliers at every junior stake, then all I ask is that when you don't see it, please stay off the internet the next day and not bash the club and/or judges.
What's the flier give the judges at a junior test anyway? The ability to see if the dog will handle a freshly killed or live duck right? Other then that it doesn't give the judges much. It can't be a wipe out bird since there's only singles....and it's not going to be a breaker (could be but that'd be dumb since the handler has a firm grasp of the dogs collar anyway), so what else as a judge are you looking for? I only have 4 marks in order to test the dogs marking skills among other things so if a second flier fits into my scenario, great, but if it doesn't then I'm not going to give it much additional thought, especially if we've done our job and offered up a smooth fun and challenging test for the handlers. IMO it's not one part but rather the whole test that will keep junior handlers coming back and/or advancing.
Happy- I'm not saying that you diminish the importance of a junior stake, but I don't believe you "cater" to it either. As a club (IMO) you strive to put on stakes at all levels that are good tests for the dogs at that level. This encompasses all aspects of a test from parking to keeping dogs in holding blinds to the marks themselves and even the ribbon ceremony after. Whether those tests involve 1 or 2 fliers is all dependent on the club, entries, judges and grounds available. Would it be nice to have 2 fliers at a junior...heck ya, but it's not always feasible. So with that in mind, if you expect to see 2 fliers at every junior stake, then all I ask is that when you don't see it, please stay off the internet the next day and not bash the club and/or judges.
What's the flier give the judges at a junior test anyway? The ability to see if the dog will handle a freshly killed or live duck right? Other then that it doesn't give the judges much. It can't be a wipe out bird since there's only singles....and it's not going to be a breaker (could be but that'd be dumb since the handler has a firm grasp of the dogs collar anyway), so what else as a judge are you looking for? I only have 4 marks in order to test the dogs marking skills among other things so if a second flier fits into my scenario, great, but if it doesn't then I'm not going to give it much additional thought, especially if we've done our job and offered up a smooth fun and challenging test for the handlers. IMO it's not one part but rather the whole test that will keep junior handlers coming back and/or advancing.
Your exactly right Darin. My only point was that $15 extra, if the club can do a flier safely and it doesn't cause other issues should be a no-brainer. The folks should be encouraged to take one home with them then and there to practice as well. Now, that suggestion I'm sure will raise a big ole mess....I know the good ole boys like to hide them away to make sure their freezer is full for the year.....funny how ducks always disapear yet, some folks always have nice frozen ducks??
Around here every JH, I've ever been to, Has had 2 flyers, it would be great if they didn't give the better gunners 2 Master. Seems like you borrow a lot of trouble for a Junior dog with flyers that walk away, particularly water divers. I don't know what multiple flyers really accomplish in JH test, we've come to see the dog mark, sure it brings excitement but the dogs aren't going to break, cripples and different areas of the fall result in no birds, etc. I guess if your dog doesn't see flyers in training a test is the only place you can get them aside from hunting, and if your going to shell out 60-65+ bucks for a test $30 for 2 flyers seems a reasonable expectation. Realistically Junior entries make our tests out here, they offset the master test cost, so we keep the Juniors happy.
P.S. You you cannot use your live flyers later, You've got gun-captain and choke issues. Gun-captain in that he's responsible for knowing what chokes everyone's using and ensuring you've got gunners who won't shoot to tear up the birds, also he ensures gunners are good enough to use minimal ammo. One shot, one bird, Lead or steel 6s or 7s with skeet chokes = no bloody messes
P.S. You you cannot use your live flyers later, You've got gun-captain and choke issues. Gun-captain in that he's responsible for knowing what chokes everyone's using and ensuring you've got gunners who won't shoot to tear up the birds, also he ensures gunners are good enough to use minimal ammo. One shot, one bird, Lead or steel 6s or 7s with skeet chokes = no bloody messes
Yes it is an issue. Hasn't been a problem this year or last. Last year as a marshal I expected to spend a morning shooting flyers. Kept a four wheeler in the blind & handled rebirds from the flyer station. FAR from ideal but the best that could be done under the circumstances.
The worst I saw was running Junior. Pulverized birds and lots of fly aways. Was so bad at one Junior test that the flyer station became a dead bird station. 6-7 flyaways before they brought one down. Was an easy and smart decision by the judges.
As far as one shot, one kill. I have had more than one judge instruct the gunners to shoot twice regardless. If I was a shooter, I shot sky with the second shot. At the Master National 3 shooters shot most birds.
I wish finding gunners & volunteers wasn't such an issue for clubs. I always pitch in at other clubs if I am needed because I certainly appreciate outside help with my clubs. I am envious of those clubs that have enough help to man gun stations & work in shifts.
May I add, for those of you who insist a flyer or two for the Junior because, "it may be the only opportunity these JH dogs get to see a flyer"; if that is in fact, the case, you've got bigger problems in your future.
Breaking news: the HT is not a training session! What better way to teach your dog the difference between training and a test than to throw dead birds (or plastic bumpers) all week and then go to a test and discover the only flyers he ever sees :shock:. Prepare your dog properly and the dog will be "underwhelmed" by the test.
It blows me away that clubs can't find someone that knows how to shoot to come SHOOT DUCKS! Hell,I'd do it and bring my own shells! Seriously,you want me to shoot ducks all day....well ok,if you really want me to.LOL!
You would think judges and clubs that weren't using fliers in JH were doing it to help those dogs out who may not have seen a bunch of fliers yet. That said, and this is just an opinion, JH should get the freshest killed birds the clubs have available. That's where the new blood and the new dogs start. We should keep it as real as possible. A dog rarely retrieves a duck 8 times in 90 degree weather while hunting.
Give my MH dog a bird that's kinda beat up. He/she should have seen enough birds to get through that. Don't do it to a puppy and a new handler.
Gunners in some clubs is a non-earned entitlement and has nothing to do with shooting ability. Can we say poli ti cal?
Just saying, have gunned my share, mostly field trials, a few hunt tests. Captain of the guns picks many times.
Grnhd asked earlier in this thread, "Does a Hunt Test get a dog more amped up than hunting"? The answer is YES. At a Hunt Test, the dog gets let out of a truck, goes into a holding blind and within seconds after leaving the blind the action starts. In hunting you can walk a half mile before getting up a bird or wait an hour before a duck comes in.
All my dogs know the difference between a trial and hunting. I guide hunters from Sept thru Dec so they hunt a lot.
As far as JR dogs being steady, they are not required to be steady. You can restrain them with a flat collar.
Now about the question of blowing up birds and using skanky ducks. I've never had a problem with flyers getting blown up, if I see a problem like that I will fix it. We always have birds to give away at the end of the trial. Very seldom do we have to throw away a flyer.
I also make sure the JR has good dead birds. If you have someone to take care of birds they can last quite awhile.
When I first started gunning at Hunt Tests, we shot pigeons. What would be wrong with bringing pigeons back?
If you think there is a problem with 75 or 80 dollar entry fees now ,just bring back pigeons and see how they holler....Our club does not shoot flyers for the Jr dog but they get all fresh killed birds ..one for each dog...Sundays Jr get all new birds just like Sat...no re used ...We feel there are far more down side issues with the young dogs than the benefit of seeing if they will pick up a fresh shot bird...Steve S
Been following this thread and am amazed at some of the responses.
In 12 years of running, working and judging for our club, I can count on 1 hand the number of blown apart birds produced by our gunners at our tests. 2 3/4 # 7 low velocity steel, skeet or cyl choke, and let the birds get out 20-25yds. We have great gunners.
For Jr's, I will always try to give 2 flyers if possible.. It isn't always. And if we don't, I make darn sure we have good birds. Again, our club prides itself on providing handlers a good experience and the condidition of the birds it a big part of that.
If we are going to use only 1, we make darn sure it means something and use it on land.
Even if i don't get two flyers in a JH test I expect my dog to pick up and deliver to hand a rotten bloated smelly duck. I have seen flyers shot in half and gutts coming out and dogs still delivering half a bird. When your hunting do you always have a shot bird that is not distroyed? I train my dog to pick up anything I send her for and she better bring it back. Clubs save your money and give me one flyer and one dead. My dog will pick up both and I will pass.
If that pisses you off .......well I'm happy to not have your ignorant a$$ around cluttering the place up.
Its attitudes like this that give this board a bad name and don't you worry your head as I don't run your clubs test on purpose. Ran it years ago and left a bad taste in my mouth. I only expressed my opinion and everyone is entitled to have one including me. I don't mind the dead bird thrown first but still think for the high fee's we pay along with the distances we have to go that all these juniors deserve to at least see a flyer. If you think thats wrong, so be it. I guess I am just a dumb a$$ who wants more for my dogs. First off I wouldn't be running if I thought they wouldn't pick up a live flyer. Been in the game almost 20 years and finished more that a few dogs.
Clay
Granted, you would see more variability in where they land but for a JR test is that critical?
Being more fragile than a duck, they could provide judges w/ an opportunity to spot hard mouth.
Quite often I've gunned retriever tests where the ducks couldn't even fly so it wasn't really any more attractive to the dog than a dead bird since I had to shoot the bird just as it was falling anyway.
Pigeons cost less & if there's a missed bird, it'll fly off so it wouldn't delay the test by trying to catch a running duck.
Seems like a more realstic scenario on land to me anyway since they're just a big dove.
Our club does not shoot fliers at the Junior Stake.
You are restraining the dog so breaking is not an issue.
Plus fliers don' always hit the same area. With young dogs and a larger entry it may cause some more issues with long hunts and dogs getting caught up in the extra scent of shot fliers. Don't always agree with that but that is our clubs policy.
I judged back when we used pigeons. They are a much smaller bird to mark and lots harder to see in broken tussocky terrain. They have some scent but it gets "airwashed" and takes awhile for it to start rising off the bird compared to a duck. They have more scent than a hen pheasant but a hen pheasant is somewhat easier to spot on the ground, 'course that depends on each fall and each bird. The level of training necessary to keep a dog hunting in the area of the fall is much higher for a pigeon than a duck or pheasant. Couple that to the fact that judges wouldn't always use good sense with them made some poor tests. Also, pigeons are lots of different colors. At 100 yards one pigeon would be visible and the next one in the crate wouldn't be. A hue and cry arose from hunt testers, enough clubs agreed and with a stroke of their voting rights, pigeons were made illegal.
Seriously, I've put a 50 yard single pigeon flyer out into a broken field more than once. We had less than 50% of the dogs pick them up. Variable or almost no wind, flyers not co-operating, gunners who were inconsistent, throwers who couldn't get them where the gunners could get on them........... Bad tests! Bigger heavier birds make the tests easier and more consistent dog to dog.
THANK YOU ///////////// AND /////////PLEASE NO MORE REPLIES FOR THIS THREAD,............. AFTER READING ALL OF THEM i NO LONGER WANT TO ATTEND
ANOTHER HUNT TEST, ...........AND ALL THE CLUBS CAN SAVE THE MONEY FOR FLYERS.
Its easy to get flustrated with the hunt tests in general but in the long term of things it does help you learn about your hunting dog and the factors that go along with having a nice hunting dog. I for one would rather not have a flyer in any test I run. The dog is already high. Add a flyer to the mix and his brain gets scrambled. In a hunting situation you have training devices to help keep him in check but not in a test. This is were bad habits start. Join a hunt club and help out at a trial this will enlighten your knowledge in what goes on and you will meet some great people that will help build your wealth of knowledge of dogs. I still remember my first junior and senior tests I ran and very greatfull for everyones help in working thru the failers I had as a handler.
Good comments Brad. It's not as if HT's are run by commercial conglomerates but rather by a local club handful of volunteers that bust their arses a few times of year to provide an event for people to run in. And proceeds from all that effort support helping and enabling all kinds of people to better their dog work - often for an annual due of about 30 bucks.
Handlers or clubs looking for entitlement should probably take a hike.
So Gunz why the attitude? The reality of it is what the clubs ARE doing not what we wish they would do.At least they're not using pigeons much any more. The dogs can get their flyers in training to keep the attitude up.If you think hunt tests are rough try field trials. Yes they get flyers but you have to make it through the first series to get more.
I would like to look it up on entry express if you do not mind. Will you share please? If you look mine up I will have a few fails here and there.
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