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Thread: Flyers at a hunt test

  1. #21
    Senior Member Swampcollie's Avatar
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    Around here we usually see two flyers in Junior, unless the conditions dictate otherwise. (Unsafe to shoot live rounds)
    Skanky waterlogged half rotten birds should not be used for Junior dogs. There is no excuse for bad birds.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Rick_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.
    Ha! All due respect, you've obviously never been involved with putting on a test and/or adding up the entry fee's - expenses after a test and hoping you broke even or, if the auction/raffle was really good, even made a little bit of money to replace the broken/lost equipment so you can hold another test in the fall.

    As someone else said, if you're going to skip junior tests that don't have 2 live flyers, you are going to miss a lot of tests.
    Rick Curtis ~ Now in Ontario, CA

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpmm665 View Post
    Section 2. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
    available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
    levels.
    I'm not an AKC judge, but I can read and this is pretty cut and dried to me.
    "Force fetch isn't about retrieving as much as it is conditioning a dog to handle pressure, in a very controlled environment. It's about putting a dog in the position of having to figure out how to turn off pressure by finding the correct response. This translates into numerous areas in training." Sharon Potter.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    I ran a hunt test recently, a double header JR. The first day we got 2 flyers, the second day only 1 flyer.
    I paid the same entry fee for both tests. One Judge at the end suggested we train with wet soggy "skanky" (not sure if I can say that here but its a quote) birds, so the dogs won't resist picking them up.
    Nowhere in this post do you say anything about frozen, skanky birds being used in this test.
    "Force fetch isn't about retrieving as much as it is conditioning a dog to handle pressure, in a very controlled environment. It's about putting a dog in the position of having to figure out how to turn off pressure by finding the correct response. This translates into numerous areas in training." Sharon Potter.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Ron in Portland's Avatar
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    Section 2. A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
    available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
    levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dman View Post
    I'm not an AKC judge, but I can read and this is pretty cut and dried to me.
    Yep, the key phrase here is "must be made available to use...". It does not say, "must be used". Shooting only one live flyer, or even no live flyers, in Junior is not breaking any rules (unless the judges WANT to shoot two flyers and the club says they do not have birds available). Over the past five years, I have only seen one club around here shoot two flyers in a Jr. test. Typically we see one flyer in Jr., one in Sr., and two in Master.

    As to skanky birds, it depends on how well the clubs cycle the birds and dispose of the bad ones, but also weather. In the Pac NW in the Spring, it's hard to keep birds dry, so they wear faster. In the Summer heat, it doesn't take long for them to turn. It also helps when you instruct the bird boys they need to trash the really bad ones. They just follow instructions (...bag the birds, rebird the station, load it in the winger...) and if no one tells them to throw out the ugliest ones, some won't know to do so.

    Funny thing to me is, for every junior dog handler that wants two flyers, it seems there are ten that don't want any live flyers.

    My dog gets squirrelier with live birds than stinky skanky birds. One thing that I've always wanted our club to do is shoot two flyers in the third series. Maybe we'll try it at our Fall test. A live duck and live pheasant flyer in the third. Now that would be fun (of course, twenty or thirty pheasant at $15 each? There's a $300 or $400 bite out of the budget. Can you serve top ramen for lunch to the workers to save money? Or maybe we'll serve pheasant ).
    Ron
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    A Lab has no appreciation for the artistic value of a bonsai tree, but does appreciate their potential as chew toys.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_C View Post
    Ha! All due respect, you've obviously never been involved with putting on a test and/or adding up the entry fee's - expenses after a test and hoping you broke even or, if the auction/raffle was really good, even made a little bit of money to replace the broken/lost equipment so you can hold another test in the fall.
    I agree Rick. Pretty obvious to those of us that have been involved.
    "Force fetch isn't about retrieving as much as it is conditioning a dog to handle pressure, in a very controlled environment. It's about putting a dog in the position of having to figure out how to turn off pressure by finding the correct response. This translates into numerous areas in training." Sharon Potter.

  7. #27
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    No club can exist breaking even on hunt tests or field trials.

    Profits have to be made to cover liability insurance, Workman's Comp insurance, dues to national clubs so your placements or passes count, printing, postage and other administrative type expenses, equipment purchases and repair, supplies for marshal boxes, etc. Membership dues just don't cover these expenses.

  8. #28
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    JH tests are the most important event of the weekend in my opinion. Many folks don't share my opinion. The clubs make good money on the tests and if run properly don't lose money. Every JH test should have a flier in both series. If a MH test thinks they need a flier to get answers the judges aren't doing a good job. Most MH pro trained dogs get plenty of fliers and the fliers at a HT are for their egos. JH tests should get two fliers. They are the easiest and least time consuming tests to run on the grounds. JH test require the least amount of resources and the judges are almost alwasy locally available costing the club no money the majority of the time. They are done in a few hours and take up the least amount of resources.

    Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH.

    When clubs "save" the fliers for the MH dogs who are mostly pro trained and get fliers on a regular basis........it's just another sign of the times. It's not for the betterment of the sport. It's to appease the willy-nilly Master-National weekend test.

  9. #29
    Senior Member pat addis's Avatar
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    our hrc club has not made much money in the last 2 yrs with high bird prices and low seasoned and started entrys. the club members giving uo 2-3 days and doing a lot of work add the price of gas for members to drive it all adds up.i want to thank all the club members every where for doing this. i know this has nothing to do about live flyers but it has a lot to do with how much if any clubs make money and continue to allow us to run our dogs

  10. #30
    Senior Member Darin Westphal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post

    Unless there is a reason such as gun safety, two fliers should be given in JH tests to give the dogs test experience. Most JH folks get their bulk of fliers at a test. For the sake of the dog and novice handler, give the two fliers to the JH.
    I judged a junior last year where we used a flier in conjunction with the land marks, and then were offered a flier on water, but due to the water we were given plus wind direction it just didn't work so we used two controlled birds on water. I do not find anything wrong with how the rules are presently worded. Give the judges the ability to use two, but if they find that TWO fliers do not work into their scenarios, then so be it. I don't agree however with your rational above. It's not the judges job nor the clubs to set up tests in order to give the dogs test experience. Judges are there to judge each individual dog on that day according to the AKC rules. If handlers choose to come to tests simply to obtain experience with fliers, then that's on them, but no one else should be concerned about whether or not a dog wants/needs multiple fliers simply for their personal experience.
    "If you have watched a pup learning the game, I do not have to tell you what it is like, and if you have not, I probably can't."- Datus Proper

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