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Thread: Flyers at a hunt test

  1. #31
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
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    in my humble and often wrong opinion, ALL stakes should also include a crippled bird, on either land or water. Or both.
    (I'm not being serious, I understand it's logistically impossible).
    That would tell you which dogs will pick up birds in a realistic situation. It kinda frosts me when people are griping in the gallery that their dog failed because he got a cripple. Seriously? These are hunting retrievers. I always hope for cripples. I offer big tips to the gunners to get me a cripple .
    Have seen 1 live flier around here in JH tests, 2 in SH. I think it would be kinda fun to see both fliers in one series.
    Last edited by hotel4dogs; 03-29-2013 at 07:08 AM.

    Barb Gibson
    with
    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA SH MXP MJP OFP VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
    www.GoTeamTito.com

  2. #32
    Senior Member Splash_em's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.
    A few of the other "small" expenses:-
    Land use fees
    Lunches for workers
    Judges expenses including travel, meals, and lodging
    Poppers
    Rosettes
    Live shells
    Nonalcoholic drinks for the stake workers
    AKC fees
    Port-a-johns
    Miscellaneous supplies (trash bags, pencils, paper)
    Equipment repair and replacement (signs, firing pins, winger tubing, gun stands)
    Etc., Etc.

    I'm chairing a test in a few weeks and I am open for suggestions on ways to mitigate part of those expense while still supplying 2 live fliers at every stake.
    Richard Gravely

    HRCH "Hammer" MH***
    Nick of Time Ride Da Lightning (future GRHRCH/MH)

  3. #33
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    Seriously Brokenguns, if you intend to continue in the retriever games you should resist the urge to whine about the tests and prepare your dog to run.

    There will not always be 2 flyers but there WILL ALWAYS BE STINKY RATTY BIRDS.

    There are 2 cliches in this game that hold true, "the test is the test, get over it" and "train don't complain"

    Bert
    Bert Rodgers

  4. #34
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    So....what part of this do most of the replys not understand, ...I enter,,,,,,regs require 2 live birds, i dont think it means the club has 2 birds per entry, then sells them on ebay. our fees are $80, less 30 for 2 ducks leaves $50, 2,5 shells per bird, sure there are other expenses but thet are amortized over the amount of entries, its not an excuse to BREAK the rules.
    Broken - folks have given several examples of why you probably won't get a flyer in each stake of junior. And flyers are not required for ANY stake in junior. You'd probably find your entry did buy 2 live birds but the requirement is not that they're USED as live birds.

    It does however give you FRESH birds.

    Blasting flyers quickly diminishes some birds value. They can't always be reused. Same goes for hard mouthing, especially on a shot bird - most commonly found in the younger dogs. Junior tests for certain things that freshly euthanized birds answer.

    Then there's birds that are used for test dogs, bird placement, etc. If those are flyers, that cost adds up. Then there's missed birds which unfortunately happens. Those add up. Then there's gunners and ammo cost versus a single winger station worker. Not to mention junior marks might create a pretty close firing line so a flyer my limit a set-up for the judge.

    As also stated - a lot of junior handlers don't want a flyer. Personally if a junior test was based on a higher scoring matrix of performance including crisp delivery to hand, non-cheating and solid unrestrained line obedience...I'd opt the junior dog get at least 1 flyer. But that's not the test.

    If 2 of the 4 marks you get in a junior series included 2 being shot - you'd really have to pay for 2.5 or 3 to account for the losses associated with flyers and the 'freshness' of the dead bird marks.

    You're not being cheated. Nobody is bringing frozen, rotten, nasty birds to a hunt test for you to use.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  5. #35
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Kendall Layne

    HR(2xHRCH) Ashland's Big Black Ruby to Go SH
    Dorie's Lady of the Lake(1K bird club)

    Never play leap frog with a unicorn.

  6. #36
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    Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.

    I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.

    Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

    Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

    If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Babcock View Post
    Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.

    I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.

    Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

    Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

    If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.
    I wish they'd use them on those dang 450 yrd marks! J/K kinda...
    Kendall Layne

    HR(2xHRCH) Ashland's Big Black Ruby to Go SH
    Dorie's Lady of the Lake(1K bird club)

    Never play leap frog with a unicorn.

  8. #38
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    I wish they'd use them on those dang 450 yrd marks! J/K kinda...
    Come hunting with us. I have a buddy that will wing'em just right so they drop about there.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  9. #39
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    They would never hear the shot before the bird hit the ground. That would be an totally unfair bird.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Goldenboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacduck View Post
    Had an experience at a JH last summer where the gunners were very good. Birds taken up close and personal. A couple even had parts fly away at the shot. One head and one wing that I vividly remember. Broken, bloody mess they almost all were. Seems a shame to have newby dogs exposed with the dangers of developing bad habits so tempting. Older dogs fine but that is the reason I prefer not to have live flyers in Junior.
    I'm sure you were kidding about the gunners being "very good". What you describe, about all of the birds being a "bloody mess", is a terrible practice for a number of reasons, and regardless of the stake.
    Mark

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