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Thread: Flyers at a hunt test

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Westphal View Post
    I judged a junior last year where we used a flier in conjunction with the land marks, and then were offered a flier on water, but due to the water we were given plus wind direction it just didn't work so we used two controlled birds on water. I do not find anything wrong with how the rules are presently worded. Give the judges the ability to use two, but if they find that TWO fliers do not work into their scenarios, then so be it. I don't agree however with your rational above. It's not the judges job nor the clubs to set up tests in order to give the dogs test experience. Judges are there to judge each individual dog on that day according to the AKC rules. If handlers choose to come to tests simply to obtain experience with fliers, then that's on them, but no one else should be concerned about whether or not a dog wants/needs multiple fliers simply for their personal experience.
    Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.

    It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacduck View Post
    Had an experience at a JH last summer where the gunners were very good. Birds taken up close and personal. A couple even had parts fly away at the shot. One head and one wing that I vividly remember. Broken, bloody mess they almost all were. Seems a shame to have newby dogs exposed with the dangers of developing bad habits so tempting. Older dogs fine but that is the reason I prefer not to have live flyers in Junior.
    You & I have very different ideas about what makes a gunner "very good". Only rookies shoot birds so close that they destroy them like that. A skilled gunner lets the bird fly a little. That's what increases the desirability for the dog which is the intention of using a flyer in the first place.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  3. #43
    Senior Member Wade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    You & I have very different ideas about what makes a gunner "very good". Only rookies shoot birds so close that they destroy them like that. A skilled gunner lets the bird fly a little. That's what increases the desirability for the dog which is the intention of using a flyer in the first place.

    Opening the chokes might help some as well.
    I hate rude behavior in a man, won't tolerate it. Captain Woodrow Call

  4. #44
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Babcock View Post
    Let me start out by saying, I have chaired Hunt Tests in MT and we have never broken even. The only way we have ever made any money is with a raffle whether we have one or two flyers.

    I have always given the option of two flyers to the judges. Most judges want to use one flyer in JR and SR. Consequently we have seen it both ways. As a trainer and a handler, I prefer one flyer for both JR and SR.

    Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

    Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

    If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Splash_em View Post
    A few of the other "small" expenses:-
    Land use fees
    Lunches for workers
    Judges expenses including travel, meals, and lodging
    Poppers
    Rosettes
    Live shells
    Nonalcoholic drinks for the stake workers
    AKC fees
    Port-a-johns
    Miscellaneous supplies (trash bags, pencils, paper)
    Equipment repair and replacement (signs, firing pins, winger tubing, gun stands)
    Etc., Etc.

    I'm chairing a test in a few weeks and I am open for suggestions on ways to mitigate part of those expense while still supplying 2 live fliers at every stake.
    Good posts!!! Saving 15 bucks a dog may make or break the test. The shot birds are often not reusable. The local "hunters" often used as flyer shooters typically bring their duck gun complete with "pass shooting" extra full chokes. Duck parts litter the ground & the ducks left have holes shot through them. After discarding 75% of the shot flyers, you will begin to understand a clubs hesitance to use more than necessary. Even with knowledgable shooters & open chokes there is always the duck that flies back to the crate & is destroyed. The knowledgable flyer shooters are marshalling, chairing the test, delivering lunches ect. So the best is made of the shooters available.

    The stake has to start with "dead ducks". The same people that want 2 flyers are going to raise hell when a club starts a Junior stake with 10 frozen ducks out of my freezer. It is also rare to shoot flyers without no birds. With a good group of Junior dogs & 2 flyers the club could shoot more than the 2 birds per entry.
    Mark Land

  5. #45
    Senior Member grnhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Babcock View Post

    Most people will agree that the flyer is the most unfair bird in a test, because of all the different scents and different places the birds land. The flyer will always favor the dogs that have been trained on it. The JR and SR both have a total of 4 marks. If you have two flyers that is 50% flyers.

    Look through all the threads of new people having control issues such as breaking and tearing down holding blinds. The excitement of the flyer adds to and can create control problems. There is no trainers either amateur or pro that train consistently using 50% flyers, it would create idiots.

    If you shoot two flyers in the master, you are about 33%, if you count blinds your closer to 25%. A derby usually has one flyer for 8 marks or about 12%. If they were shooting 50% flyers in the derby no one would run them, because they would be creating idiots.
    I don't know anything about the hunt test games,but isnt everything in HUNTING a live flyer? If a person cant get a dog to be steady when 50% of the birds could be a flyer,how are they ever going to have one be steady when 100% of the birds are flyers? If a person cant get a dog to be steady when 1 bird is shot in front of it,how will it ever be steady when 4 are shot in front of it during a 6 gun volley? What am I missing? Does a hunt test get a dog more amped up than hunting?
    Last edited by grnhd; 03-29-2013 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mike Peters-labguy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.

    It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.
    Our club has only put on 2 AKC hunting tests but we did lose money on our 3 junior stakes that we put on.....I think we may have had one junior that used 2 flyers but I am not positive on that. There were plenty of flyers available for our judges to use.
    Mike Peters

  7. #47
    Senior Member Clayton Evans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.

    It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.
    Its obvious Paul that you haven't been around any other clubs but your local ones. Clubs like ours only have a couple judges that can judge. You do not use them on every test you run or they will soon burn out and quit judging.
    You are very fortunate to have so many judges available in the Seattle area. If we want to have more local judges they have to come to a semaniar all the way to your clubs as we with very very few members can't afford putting on one for the benefit of the club.
    So all I can say is THANKS Dick, Kent, John, our three local judges, for all you do so we all can enjoy what we do in eastern Wa.
    Clay
    Last edited by Clayton Evans; 03-29-2013 at 11:24 AM. Reason: posted before finishing
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by grnhd View Post
    Does a hunt test get a dog more amped up than hunting?
    Yes it does.
    Bert Rodgers

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    Where are entries the biggest and cost the lowest? JH. Where do most people start in the game if they don't have a pro providing their dogs with live birds on a regular basis? JH. Many dogs only get fliers at HT's. For the test that runs the fastest, almost always uses local judges, has little cost....Clubs should make an effort to have a flier in each series.

    It's AKC rule to have two available to the judges for JH.
    must be your part of the country. Our junior or started seldom have a third the number of dogs that a master/finished flight has. Cost to run the flight is not significantly different than any other flight. Still need judges, birds, workers (we pay ours)....
    There more times than not our lower level test make no money and the saving grace is large master entries.
    Our test next weekend has 10 started on Saturday and 8 on Sunday. That is pretty typical although in our AKC test we have maybe 15-20 juniors, but one or two large flights of master. Throwing two flyers for 8 dogs is not a money maker.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  10. #50
    Senior Member Goldenboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    Good posts!!! Saving 15 bucks a dog may make or break the test. The shot birds are often not reusable. The local "hunters" often used as flyer shooters typically bring their duck gun complete with "pass shooting" extra full chokes. Duck parts litter the ground & the ducks left have holes shot through them. After discarding 75% of the shot flyers, you will begin to understand a clubs hesitance to use more than necessary. Even with knowledgable shooters & open chokes there is always the duck that flies back to the crate & is destroyed. The knowledgable flyer shooters are marshalling, chairing the test, delivering lunches ect. So the best is made of the shooters available.
    What I have experienced over the years in the Northeast, with rare exceptions, is that the live shot flyers are the most desirable birds for use over the entirety of the test. Most gun captains and clubs that I have witnessed, with acute awareness of the cost birds, take every reasonable measure to ensure that the shot birds are in a condition to be used for more than one series, oftentimes used for the entire stake. That, and a level of respect for the game, provides that the gunners are capable and informed about what is expected in terms of choke, shot size, and ethical (and safe) shooting practices. Shot birds are generally kept on a separate drying rack and bagged separately from previously killled birds. They are highly prized for training birds at the conclusion of the test.

    Suitable for the table, baby, just like the goal of real hunting.
    Last edited by Goldenboy; 03-29-2013 at 11:27 AM.
    Mark

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