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Thread: Michigan starts a new era in that state.

  1. #41
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    I don't think anybody will jucge me by your answer but they might judge you.

    What I know is a combination of my education both formal and informal. My formal education is what it is. As to the informal, that came primarily from my father was "spend less that you make." "It is not how much you make but how much you save." "Give better than was bargained for and your rewards will be far greater than you expected." I have always felt that he put it simply but spoke volumes. While I have paid my share of "stupid tax", I have never the less tried to follow his guidance. Today I have found it to have served me well. With the exception of college and a year when I was extremely sick, I have always spent less than I made. That has been true even for the 5 years that I have been retired. I have just spent less. Finantially I do not consider myself rich but I am not poor either. I am however richer more than I could have imagined when my father taught me the simple principle. "Give better than was bargained for and your rewards will be far greater than you expected. I did not realize what he truly meant at the time but today I now know that that principle has made me richer than I could have imagined.

    Your statement about your avatar reminded me of a story I once heard. Two people were looking at a rainbow. The first said "look at the rainbow in the sky." The second said, looking at its reflection on the water, said "look at it on the water". "Which one is upside down. I trust you can not only picture it but understand its meaning.
    Looks like your dad taught you well. I had a German pa who was extremely miserly. He was a blue collar auto worker with an eighth grade education and he died young. He never borrowed a dime. He bought cars and a new house paying with cash. I learned from that too. Looks like our pas knew how to bring up kids.

    While we may disagree, which is OK, I felt your reply was a bit condescending. If i got the tone of your reply wrong, I apologize. Digital communication leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation. However, I felt the tone of your final paragraph in effect calling me a liar.
    Last edited by zeus3925; 04-04-2013 at 09:04 AM.
    Zeus

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Looks like your dad taught you well. I had a German pa who was extremely miserly. He was a blue collar auto worker with an eighth grade education and he died young. He never borrowed a dime. He bought cars and a new house paying with cash. I learned from that too. Looks like our pas knew how to bring up kids.

    While we may disagree, which is OK, I felt your reply was a bit condescending. If i got the tone of your reply wrong, I apologize. Digital communication leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation. However, I felt the tone of your final paragraph in effect calling me a liar.
    First of all, you have never seen a post of mine calling anyone a liar and you never will. Actually, I don't feel I have to. All the facts make it unnecessary if not outright wrong.

    I thought your statement about your avatar was amusing. The reference to the 2 rainbows was a result of the black and white statement about your avatar. The rainbow story can make quite an interesting point. Picture 2 children looking at a scene of a rainbow and the reflection of the one on the water upside down to the one in the sky. The one in the sky is the one that most will picture as upright and the one on the water, since it is perceived as a reflection of the one in the sky as the one upside down. In reality, both are reflections and neither can be considered upside down and neither right side up. Quite a picture to initiate much reflection(pun intended)

    While I firmly do not believe that those 5 items you listed as benefits that unions are responsible, I am sure you just as firmly believe they are. I also have never understood unions using the term working man as if it referred to how much a worker made, and never will. I will always believe that anyone who works and makes a living legally is a working man.

    When I was in practice, I felt that my patients could hire me and fire me as their choice. Thankfully many more hired me than fired me. Also on occasion I chose not to be hired by someone. I did that because I thought that it was the best for both of us. I loved to work in that environment and thought it kept me sharp. I could not imagine going to work every day knowing that the worker beside me would made just as much as I even if I was a much better worker and more valuable to my employer.

    To set the record straight, I have never felt a need to be condesending, arrogant, superior nor self deprecating. I have only felt that I had to be the best I could be. Calling someone a liar may give some satisfaction but does nothing for me.

  3. #43
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    First of all, you have never seen a post of mine calling anyone a liar and you never will. Actually, I don't feel I have to. All the facts make it unnecessary if not outright wrong.

    I thought your statement about your avatar was amusing. The reference to the 2 rainbows was a result of the black and white statement about your avatar. The rainbow story can make quite an interesting point. Picture 2 children looking at a scene of a rainbow and the reflection of the one on the water upside down to the one in the sky. The one in the sky is the one that most will picture as upright and the one on the water, since it is perceived as a reflection of the one in the sky as the one upside down. In reality, both are reflections and neither can be considered upside down and neither right side up. Quite a picture to initiate much reflection(pun intended)

    While I firmly do not believe that those 5 items you listed as benefits that unions are responsible, I am sure you just as firmly believe they are. I also have never understood unions using the term working man as if it referred to how much a worker made, and never will. I will always believe that anyone who works and makes a living legally is a working man.

    When I was in practice, I felt that my patients could hire me and fire me as their choice. Thankfully many more hired me than fired me. Also on occasion I chose not to be hired by someone. I did that because I thought that it was the best for both of us. I loved to work in that environment and thought it kept me sharp. I could not imagine going to work every day knowing that the worker beside me would made just as much as I even if I was a much better worker and more valuable to my employer.

    To set the record straight, I have never felt a need to be condesending, arrogant, superior nor self deprecating. I have only felt that I had to be the best I could be. Calling someone a liar may give some satisfaction but does nothing for me.

    Cary, I need to meet you someday...you are one of the most level headed people here on POTUS..(I can overlook the fact that you are a dentist, since I have a fear of them, even after getting some much needed dental work done in the last year) its a pleasure to read your opinions here on POTUS
    All my Exes live in Texas

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    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  4. #44
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    First of all, you have never seen a post of mine calling anyone a liar and you never will. Actually, I don't feel I have to. All the facts make it unnecessary if not outright wrong.

    I thought your statement about your avatar was amusing. The reference to the 2 rainbows was a result of the black and white statement about your avatar. The rainbow story can make quite an interesting point. Picture 2 children looking at a scene of a rainbow and the reflection of the one on the water upside down to the one in the sky. The one in the sky is the one that most will picture as upright and the one on the water, since it is perceived as a reflection of the one in the sky as the one upside down. In reality, both are reflections and neither can be considered upside down and neither right side up. Quite a picture to initiate much reflection(pun intended)

    While I firmly do not believe that those 5 items you listed as benefits that unions are responsible, I am sure you just as firmly believe they are. I also have never understood unions using the term working man as if it referred to how much a worker made, and never will. I will always believe that anyone who works and makes a living legally is a working man.

    When I was in practice, I felt that my patients could hire me and fire me as their choice. Thankfully many more hired me than fired me. Also on occasion I chose not to be hired by someone. I did that because I thought that it was the best for both of us. I loved to work in that environment and thought it kept me sharp. I could not imagine going to work every day knowing that the worker beside me would made just as much as I even if I was a much better worker and more valuable to my employer.

    To set the record straight, I have never felt a need to be condesending, arrogant, superior nor self deprecating. I have only felt that I had to be the best I could be. Calling someone a liar may give some satisfaction but does nothing for me.
    Those five points are generally accepted as achievements of the labor unions. Unions also take different forms--AMA, Screen Actors Guild, sports players unions, employee associations. The trade unions train there members for skills needed in the work place. Employers often will hire from trade unions exclusively Since they know the job will be done competently by union trained workmen. Unions don't equate a working man with the income they earn. As I have stated in another way, unions are not for every situation. They generally arise in situations where there is a gross inequity in the workplace or an employer gets imperialistic and insensitive. But, there are also situations where the employer invites formation of a union.

    The good still got promoted where I worked. People still got fired in my tenure. In most cases the union could smooth the process to negotiate a softer landing than sending someone out the door mad. Mad people file law suits and the employer is also interested in avoiding a distraction.

    I really take issue in your previous post with the term "your propaganda". I am not trying to feed you any bull. I am trying to be as straight as can be to set forth my position.

    The Republicans at this time are bashing unions not because they suddenly developed a love crush on the poor suffering union member. They are using it as a platform for a power grab by attempting to destroy the political base of the opposition. No Republican is saying that is not true.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Those five points are generally accepted as achievements of the labor unions. Unions also take different forms--AMA, Screen Actors Guild, sports players unions, employee associations. The trade unions train there members for skills needed in the work place. Employers often will hire from trade unions exclusively Since they know the job will be done competently by union trained workmen. Unions don't equate a working man with the income they earn. As I have stated in another way, unions are not for every situation. They generally arise in situations where there is a gross inequity in the workplace or an employer gets imperialistic and insensitive. But, there are also situations where the employer invites formation of a union.

    The good still got promoted where I worked. People still got fired in my tenure. In most cases the union could smooth the process to negotiate a softer landing than sending someone out the door mad. Mad people file law suits and the employer is also interested in avoiding a distraction.

    I really take issue in your previous post with the term "your propaganda". I am not trying to feed you any bull. I am trying to be as straight as can be to set forth my position.

    The Republicans at this time are bashing unions not because they suddenly developed a love crush on the poor suffering union member. They are using it as a platform for a power grab by attempting to destroy the political base of the opposition. No Republican is saying that is not true.
    Again you point out a fundamental difference in our beliefs. You hold the belief that it is generally accepted that unions achieved those 5 points you listed. I will remind you there are more worker injuries and workman's compensation claims and more dissabillity claims than ever before. I will also remind you that once it was generally accepted that the earth was flat. It was once generally accepted that to own slaves was an indication of achievement.

    You point out that some companies hire trade union members exclusively BECAUSE THE DO COMPENTANT WORK and I assume you mean at a competive price. That being the case, do you really think they hire union tradesmen because they are union or because they offer their labor at a competitive price. Given that the case, do you really think they care if they are union or non-union?

    I suspect that when you need your car or truck fixed or your heating system fixed, you hire the company and workers you feel that will do the best job at the cheapest price. If you FEEL that they don't do the best job at the cheapest price, THEN YOU FIRE THEM. No soft landing or such nonsense for you. You just FIRE THEM and go somewhere else. I sold my labor. You sold your labor. Not one single patient ever had to justify to me or a board nor to the government why they fired me. That is as it should be.

    I never paid employees the same pay. If I had an employee who could assist in patient treatment, make appointments, do the billing, make deposits, that employee was worth to me far more that one who could only assist in treatment or could only make appointments or could only do billing. I wanted such versitile employees and was willing to pay them more than those of limited ability. Unions limit if not forbid such versatile employees. Unions encourage if not actually demand that all worker be paid the same regardless of their economic worth.

    Our basic dissagreement is that you think buying labor is different that buying a tractor, car, shirt, auto repair, ect. I think there is no difference. You sell a product or service or you sell our labor. To me there is no difference.

    I will say that unions COULD be beneficial to both the employee and the employer but not with the gov. interference we have today and not with the structure of unions today. That is another discussion and much longer than this one.

  6. #46
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    I have been the member of five separate unions in my lifetime. I was democratically elected to the board of three of those and local president of two. I have never been coerced in joining a union nor did I ever coerce or threaten anybody to join a union--PERIOD. I served as a volunteer without pay on those boards and official positions. I don't know where you get the idea that all unions are about extortion, coercion, and thuggery to recruit membership so the big shots can live the life of Riley.
    Anyone who is required to pay union dues to hold a job is being blackmailed, period end of story. I was blackmailed and screwed as a teenager by the grocery union. How happy all of us high school students were when the big mall opened. NO more paying union dues for 5 cents above min and contract votes held without notification and at hours and locations that we could never go to. By which I mean they held the votes when they knew we could not go. Weekday at 10 am an hour from the store. THEY DID THAT TO SCREW THE KIDS!
    Hihope Hiland Heathen of Perth CD, RE, CGC, TDI

  7. #47
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    Cary, I need to meet you someday...you are one of the most level headed people here on POTUS..(I can overlook the fact that you are a dentist, since I have a fear of them, even after getting some much needed dental work done in the last year) its a pleasure to read your opinions here on POTUS
    Id love to meet him too although I have a massive fear of dentists and need to take drugs even for a checkup! Oddly I can handle a straight cleaning with zero issues but don't tap on my teeth with those scary tools.
    Hihope Hiland Heathen of Perth CD, RE, CGC, TDI

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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmylabs23139 View Post
    Id love to meet him too although I have a massive fear of dentists and need to take drugs even for a checkup! Oddly I can handle a straight cleaning with zero issues but don't tap on my teeth with those scary tools.
    Hey Luv and Bon! I WAS a dentist. Now I am an amataur dog trainer enjoying meeting as many new people with the same interest. I do intend to get to NC for a hunt test in the future. There are friends of mine in both Winston Salem and Charlotte. If I make it that far, I expect you, Luv to make it the rest of the way.

    Bon, I will be in Texarkana Apr 16-25 and plan on being in Iowa this fall. Maybe one of them will work out for you. Not mentioning anybody but I have met a very good friend of yours who thinks the world of you. We gotta make that meeting!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmylabs23139 View Post
    Anyone who is required to pay union dues to hold a job is being blackmailed, period end of story. I was blackmailed and screwed as a teenager by the grocery union. How happy all of us high school students were when the big mall opened. NO more paying union dues for 5 cents above min and contract votes held without notification and at hours and locations that we could never go to. By which I mean they held the votes when they knew we could not go. Weekday at 10 am an hour from the store. THEY DID THAT TO SCREW THE KIDS!
    How from paying union dues are you being blackmailed? If I require my employees to wear steel toed boots or require them to to adhere to a dress code or pay for a uniform service as an employer am I blackmailing my employees?

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