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Thread: Pros and cons of wagons before patterns

  1. #21
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Everyone - a lot of great input and I appreciate it and will meditate on it!



    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Jennifer, My guess is that you and dog need work on handling for marks---come to the line, help dog pick out gunners, teach dog to follow your movement to watch marks go off. Then dog gets go-bird; dog returns, you are already facing next mark, if dog heels he is already lined up for next mark. This routine is established in training, and I think there are drills in the Cassidy book that help with this. I'm not a very good handler, but my dog has learned about lining up for the next mark somehow, so it is totally doable. Technically you are not allowed to line dog on marks in FTs.


    The TRT stuff is not super fresh, but the pattern blinds teach dog to line to the known destinations and to learn angle backs. The drills you mention I believe are much more difficult for dog to learn, at least they were for my dog, and so for me it makes sense to do them after dog learns lining and angle backs from doing pattern blinds. I believe their intention is more for lining up for blinds (not marks), and so it also doesn't make sense to use them to teach lining for marks in a young dog.

    Newbie regards, FWIW.
    Bolding is mine: You are right, Renee and we are doing marking set ups every day with multiple guns and a GIANT flier station with real ducks and yellow duck crate and sometimes more than one human. It has helped tremendously. Singles and doubles, dead ducks and live.

    But the other side of the coin is that as we follow the Lardy flow chart, we are ready for pattern blinds. However - it always seemed more logical to do wagon wheel before patterns - thus my question. And to me, while watching the Lardy DVDs it seemed like wagon wheel was just an afterthought. That made me think it was a drill that you could throw in at any point.

    I feel like I have a better understanding after reading everyone's input. Thanks again,

    Jen

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=Jennifer Henion;1089051]
    Renee and we are doing marking set ups every day with multiple guns and a GIANT flier station with real ducks and yellow duck crate and sometimes more than one human.

    Use stick men at the flyer station to simulate a flyer even if you have to throw a dead bird...the dogs are looking at the extra coats not the crates...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jerry S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    There are many successful field trial dogs who never saw a so called pattern blind
    Ed, I have watched Danny send a young dog on a blind, and handle almost all the way to the blind while walking closely behind dog.
    I've also watched him, with transition dogs, send them when they are looking about ten degrees from the final destination and still kicks them off the mat.
    He wants dogs that will handle.
    Other people want dogs that will take a good initial line and then take casts from there.
    What are your thoughts?
    I have seen both ways. Both are very different in their approach but ultimately end up in the same location.

  4. #24
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    I think you should probably stick with the program you are in. Having said that, have been to several Lardy seminars over the years , the very early years were much different then the DVD's and the last seminar with Juice as a Demo dog about three years ago or maybe four more different yet. The point after you have put a few dogs through basics, transition and advanced you can modify the program to fit the dog. I do eight handed casting and wagon wheels before handling pattern blinds, just out of the TT. I even handle on a single row of a wagon wheel, sometimes without calling back, whistle sit handle to the bumper , even as short distance as it is. I do eight handed casting with a circle of bumpers, but, use a half circle for the lining wagon wheel. It works for me. I start walking baseball too, before pattern blinds or sometimes use the bumpers to line to without casting. This all takes a variety of land to do, are fortunate to have access to the proper park like settings. I am basically a Lardyite ,but, have modified the basic portion to suit my individual dog needs.
    Earl Dillow

  5. #25
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    WWLD???

    Stick to the program.

    regards...
    What I meant:

    What would Lardy do = WWLD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I don't mean to try to lead you away from whatever practices you've chosen. I'm only answering your question about these two procedures. I don't think both in the same session is a good idea, but I do think both during the same developmental period is fine. Start your sessions with marks. Then spend a bit of time on WWLD. Then something involving marks, if you can, before running your pattern.

    I like pattern blinds, and use them during development of all dogs. I do not believe in over using them, however, and I don't use them for lining purposes at all. WWLD has two essential goals; moving right and left with the handler, and learning to take an initial line. The actual lining portion doesn't really enter the drill until you have moved on to the 16-bumper, 2 tiered drill.

    Evan
    What Evan meant:

    Wagon Wheel Lining Drills = WWLD.

    Yet,

    What Would Lardy Do ≠ Wagon Wheel Lining Drills.



    (Edit: Oops, I hope this does not come across as a stab at you, Evan. I was trying to understand your usage of What Would Lardy Do in your response...got a chuckle when I realized that wasn't what you meant.)
    Last edited by mitty; 04-01-2013 at 10:47 PM.
    Renee P

  6. #26
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    What I meant:

    What would Lardy do = WWLD.

    What Evan meant:

    Wagon Wheel Lining Drills = WWLD.

    Yet,

    What Would Lardy Do ≠ Wagon Wheel Lining Drills.



    (Edit: Oops, I hope this does not come across as a stab at you, Evan. I was trying to understand your usage of What Would Lardy Do in your response...got a chuckle when I realized that wasn't what you meant.)
    No problem at all. I was aiming at the original question asked about possible issues with mixing Pattern Blinds & Wagon Wheel Lining drills in the same session, or same period. Some do, some don't. If she's following TRT we're both right!

    Evan
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  7. #27
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry S. View Post
    Ed, I have watched Danny send a young dog on a blind, and handle almost all the way to the blind while walking closely behind dog.
    I've also watched him, with transition dogs, send them when they are looking about ten degrees from the final destination and still kicks them off the mat.
    He wants dogs that will handle.
    Other people want dogs that will take a good initial line and then take casts from there.
    What are your thoughts?
    I have seen both ways. Both are very different in their approach but ultimately end up in the same location.
    Our teacher was the same, start cold blinds early, do lots of them, and teach them to handle on both blinds and marks. As with most things in life there is not a wrong way or right way so long as you ultimately accomplish the goal.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Do most people use the double ring wagon-wheel? It has always seemed a little pointless for my uses, as I only use the wagon-wheel to teach close up heeling movement, and teach literal lines in the pattern field either btw stakes, or with a W like pattern, basically further out as I prefer my dogs to carry a long and straight lines. I also don't do many cold blinds in training a younger dog everything has a stake, that way they have the confidence to push hard and fast back regardless of distance. even the older dogs get probably 50-50 cold blind & stakes, as I'm usually interested in teaching & correcting lines. It's usually T-pattern > patterns>perminate blinds>waterforce> water patterns (teach angles-point etc.)> stretch that out
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 04-02-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Do most people use the double ring wagon-wheel? It has always seemed a little pointless for my uses, as I only use the wagon-wheel to teach close up heeling movement, and teach literal lines in the pattern field either btw stakes, or with a W like pattern, basically further out as I prefer my dogs to carry a long and straight lines.
    To get accurate lines over distance begins with an accurate initial line. That's what two-tiered/16-bumper WWLD. Are there other ways to do it? Sure. But it's a good one, and many, many trainers use it. In the lining process, it fits with the thinking that dictates "Simplest work first, progressing sequentially toward more complex".

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

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