Pros and cons of wagons before patterns - Page 2
The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Wildear
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 29

Thread: Pros and cons of wagons before patterns

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Phoenix MD


    Quote Originally Posted by KNorman View Post
    Patterns are about developing momentum and thus are planted in plain site and eventually become "taught" blinds as you move back. They're not about not precise lining.
    True, but a 3 legged pattern requires basic lining. When you come out of T work a couple days of wagon wheel lineing prepares the dog and in no way interferes with momentum.
    Bert Rodgers

  2. Remove Advertisements

  3. #12
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Burlington, Vermont


    Simple Answer Jen,
    As Lisa Van Lou, or as Jerry called her Lisa Dam Who?, used to type,
    “It Depends”!
    Many, Many, Many of us do “Yard work” and “Field Work” on the same day. Just like how most all of your flow charts are split in half? Many of us start the day with some yard OB and whatever we have for our own “Work with me” Drills in our lawn. Pull into the driveway of half the members of every retriever club represented on the RTF and you will see a random holding blind or two on the back lawn. The same with arriving at your favorite training field. I have set up a wagon wheel more than once while waiting for training partners to arrive. You need to use caution not to over train or over drill. It can be done. You need to be mindful of the progression and what you are building upon. You can definitely do more than one thing a day as long as you are not hop-scotching through the flow chart of the program you are using.
    Make sense?
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  4. #13
    Moderator Renee P.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Salt Lake City


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Yes, actually lining more than casting Wagon is what I had in mind.

    Bert, that's what I was thinking - but Lardy and DL Walters say Patterns first???

    After my recent Derby failure with dog rubber necking to the flier station when I was trying to get her to look at other gun, I'm very interesting in lining work.

    I'd really like to know if they interfere with one another or if one builds on the other necessitating a specific order.

    I'd like to do both drills each day at different times, if possible. (both meaning wagon lining and pattern blinds)
    Jennifer, My guess is that you and dog need work on handling for marks---come to the line, help dog pick out gunners, teach dog to follow your movement to watch marks go off. Then dog gets go-bird; dog returns, you are already facing next mark, if dog heels he is already lined up for next mark. This routine is established in training, and I think there are drills in the Cassidy book that help with this. I'm not a very good handler, but my dog has learned about lining up for the next mark somehow, so it is totally doable. Technically you are not allowed to line dog on marks in FTs.

    The TRT stuff is not super fresh, but the pattern blinds teach dog to line to the known destinations and to learn angle backs. The drills you mention I believe are much more difficult for dog to learn, at least they were for my dog, and so for me it makes sense to do them after dog learns lining and angle backs from doing pattern blinds. I believe their intention is more for lining up for blinds (not marks), and so it also doesn't make sense to use them to teach lining for marks in a young dog.

    Newbie regards, FWIW.
    R. Pennington
    (Formerly Mitty)
    Snake River's Banana Cream Pie QA2 MH

  5. Remove Advertisements

  6. #14
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003


    Casting Wagon Wheel right after a solid dose of TT.
    then after acting WW, straight to cold blinds.

    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet MH (Flinch)

    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  7. #15
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010


    I like the dog to be able to move with me, so right out of t-pattern the wagon-wheel in introduced, sometimes during the t-pattern. I run them both as separate sessions, it becomes tedious to try and line a dog up on any blinds when they don't know how to move with yah. I'll often use the t-pattern stakes as lining poles and teach different angled straight backs to finish up a session. So for me, the wagon-wheel movement is usually taught as an extension of heel. I can't really see how it would effect a dog negatively, teaching it either way. Wagon is close up work, pattern blinds are far out. only positive for wagon-wheel first is the trained dog will already know how to move with you in your pattern field.
    "They's Just DAWGS"; "I train dogs, Not papers"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"

    GMRH-I HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
    GMHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    MHR HR Storm SH (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)

  8. #16
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Anchorage, AK


    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Casting Wagon Wheel right after a solid dose of TT.
    then after acting WW, straight to cold blinds.

    That's close to what I do Gooser, but that ain't Lardy.

    I wouldn't tell any newbie to deviate from what I know to be a proven program if that's what they have chosen to follow.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  9. #17
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Kansas City, MO


    I don't mean to try to lead you away from whatever practices you've chosen. I'm only answering your question about these two procedures. I don't think both in the same session is a good idea, but I do think both during the same developmental period is fine. Start your sessions with marks. Then spend a bit of time on WWLD. Then something involving marks, if you can, before running your pattern.

    I like pattern blinds, and use them during development of all dogs. I do not believe in over using them, however, and I don't use them for lining purposes at all. WWLD has two essential goals; moving right and left with the handler, and learning to take an initial line. The actual lining portion doesn't really enter the drill until you have moved on to the 16-bumper, 2 tiered drill.

    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw

    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)

  10. #18
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Lake Winola, Pa


    I am through straight patterns and am going to patterns w/ diversions. Crosby does not lock on at all, so I am going to teach him wagon wheel tomorrow, and continue in the pattern field .
    I don't believe there is a problem doing ww and patterns at the same time,but know that you doing ww lining is not going to fix your live bird crate issue. EXPOSURE to live birds, gunners and training those elements fixes that
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea MH QAA "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!
    Manager of

  11. #19
    Senior Member KNorman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Prairieville, La


    The following is JMO:

    In my experience, a pattern blind drill is ultimately a 3 legged, widely spaced set of blinds that are "identified" by white piles (at first). They are built ONE leg at a time (usually outside leg to outside leg with middle being last) from up close and gradually lenthened to become "taught" blinds. The blinds themselves are used as a bridge between other known pile drills, like that used during TT, and real cold blinds. So....precise lining isn't what you're looking for, but rather momentum. Too much fussing to get proper lines can cause bugging, so just kick'em off and handle. Follow them out if you have to and strive for success. As the drill proceeds to a point where the piles are orange bumpers and the pile locations "taught", you will hopefully be getting good momentum, with improving casting and lining.

    Some people don't use pattern blinds. I happen to like them and have several pattern fields I will judiciously return to, even when the dog is older, to work on casting problems, lining problems, poison birds, etc.

    I think what Jennifer is referring to is her line mechanics, not "lining". The lining drill itself is called Wagon Wheel....the casting drill is called 8 Handed Cast and used to teach beginning literal casting (angles, etc).

    I don't think WW would hurt, after you get some good momentum flowing.

    Being perfectly candid. If this were my dog.

    1. I'd stop running tests and stop trying to shore up problems that are beginning to pop up by running the dog in tests/trials it's not ready for.
    2. Stick with the chosen program (TRT) and start building a dog with a firm foundation
    3. Instill proper line mechanics (such as sit means sit, learning how to pick out long guns, basic derby marking drills, etc).
    4. Stop looking to build a better mousetrap while pushing the dog. The program exists in the sequence it does for a reason.

    Several people have suggested waiting and establishing good basics, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
    This is rapidly becoming an example of what NOT to do with your first dog.

    Last edited by KNorman; 04-01-2013 at 04:39 PM.

  12. #20
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003


    There are many successful field trial dogs who never saw a so called pattern blind

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts