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Hand Down on Marks & Blinds

9K views 59 replies 25 participants last post by  Golddogs 
#1 ·
Somewhere in TRT, Lardy says that putting your hand down is a confirmation to the dog, you aren't giving him the line with your hand. Is this what you do? Is it different between marks and blinds?

How do you cue a dog he's running a mark vs a blind?

How precise is your initial line to the blind? It would seem to be helpful to adjust the dog's direction a few degrees, the hand would seem to be a less disruptive tool for fine tuning than moving the dog with shoulders and legs.
 
#2 · (Edited)
The hand can be used for two objectives: 1) Confirm to the dog that he/she is looking in the correct direction 2) when done consistantly on the first retrieve or blind, it helps to train the dog that they will not be sent until the hand is down and this helps prevent breaking. I always say 'dead bird' prior to a blind and the dog cues in to that after some time and knows right away that he is going for a blind rather than a mark. The slight change in angle of a hand really wouldn't cause the dog to shift a few degrees. Your leg movement is more helpful. I personally also gently say 'that's it' as the dog has settled in on the correct direction slightly prior to lowering my hand and then sending.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I use a cue of "mark" for marks and "dead bird" for blinds. I say "good" when the dog is looking in the correct direction on blinds. The correction for looking the wrong way is made with the feet and hand tapping the leg, etc. It is important that the dog learn what your body movements mean. Lardy goes into this in detail in his Vol 1 RJ articles.

Moving the hand is not the correct procedure. Getting a good initial line is learned through wagon wheel, pattern blinds and pattern blinds with diversions. But be patient as a dog just starting out on cold blinds probably won't take a good initial line. The most important thing at first, IMHO, is go, stop and come. But good initial lines will come with time and practice.

I hope this helps.
 
#4 · (Edited)
For a blind keep your hand close to but behind the dog's head. When he's looking where you want quickly put your hand out and send him. If your dog is in early blind training don't mess around trying to get him lined up. As he progresses and is confident you can adjust him more.

You can adjust him with "here and heel." Stepping up a little to push him away from you or stepping back a little to pull him toward you.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Dogs are incapable of "aiming".
Even if they had arms, hands, and fingers, they would not be able to aim a rifle.
Rather, they react and respond to our gestures, and movements.

Therefore, it is impossible to give a dog a "line" with your hand. Even though lots of people try.

For "big" movements, I use my left leg. For minute movements, I use my right leg.
At first, I move the dog's body with my left, and it's head with my right. As the dog becomes more comfortable, and proficient, I can move only his head with my left leg, and his eyes with my right leg.

When he is looking where I want, I say "good". When he looks away, I say "no".
When he stays locked in, where I want him to look, I drop the hand, and say "BACK".
 
#7 ·
The "brain power" that it takes to sight a rifle.
It's a lot of math, and dogs just simply can't do the math.

They respond to US, and our MOVEMENTS.
But, they can't aim a gun, or sink an 8 ball in the corner pocket. Their brains can't process the data and calculate the angles.
They don't "see" lines.

They see a point, in a picture. We can direct their attention to that point. But, we can't aim them down a line.
 
#10 ·
Some people shake a Polaroid, tap the top of a soda can, and/or wave their hand back and forth in front of their dog's nose.

They are all equally pointless, and superstitious behaviors.
 
#13 ·
I never used to put my hand down on marks.

I always did on blinds.

I have been taught a routine now dropping my hand on the go bird when running marking set ups.

Its more used as a steadying tool.

I will say, I have witnessed older ,,experienced dogs ,,,who may on their blinds ,Look away from the destination point the handler wants. The experienced handler will command "Here" with the hand over the head, and the dog will immediatly look to that point.

With young dogs(Like mine) I have been chewed out for messin with her at the line trying to "Line" her.. Maybe command "here" or "heel" ONCE,, then if you dont get what you want,, I am told Kick the dog off and handle.. I have noticed very subtle improvements on her leaving the line with a good initial line now,Very slow improvements though.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I was always taught by those much more knowledgeablethen my self it's all about the eyes where the dog is going. Spine can be correct, head can be correct, eyes someplace else. I try look over the dogs head to see the eyes or watch the eyebrows, when they are in sinc, hand over the head for the release. That's all the hand is, the release. Waving the hand side to side, hand up and down, pushing with a forward motion is useless in training! At a field trial or hunt test
Sometimes a slight tap on the knee, a here or heel for push pull, a step up or back, a slight tap on the knee put the hand out in front, whatever it takes, with watch the eyes. Competition handling is different then training handling, if you go in a training mode at a trial , well it might be a ticket home. Perfect world in training with good habits, whatever it takes to win or survive at a trial within the rules or guidelines of the event.
 
#15 ·
There is a fine line between "helping" a dog and teaching (albeit indirectly) a dog not to trust its own innate abilities
Part of being a good marking dog is having confidence in your abilities
Help a dog too much, and you teach a dog not to trust itself
Don't help a dog and maybe you are driving home instead of playing on
I have helped when I shouldn't have and I have not helped when I should have (and done both late in Nationals)
No hard and fast rules here
 
#16 ·
I enjoyed a Pat Burns seminar where he presented his thoughts on advanced, multiple layer wagon wheel drills for refining pup's initial lines and getting adjustments to that line. Pup at heel where you can look down and see the eyes. Use body and leg "english" to get the proper alignment. When pup is really tuned the hand position can be used to make very fine adjustments. Hand slightly in front of dog will tend to push him slightly to the left. Hand behind will tend to pull him to the right. I'm not there yet but getting better with the dog's position and watching the eyes and eyebrows to make sure he's seeing what I'm hoping he sees.
Now, if I could just do that at a trial . . .
 
#19 ·
I almost always get very good ILs and I don't drop my hand in until their is a focus and commitment in their eyes.

That said, how is it I hear some folks can teach their dog to follow a gun barrel but it's not possible to influence their line with your hand???

JS
 
#21 ·
.....how is it I hear some folks can teach their dog to follow a gun barrel but it's not possible to influence their line with your hand???
Ever played air guitar?

Try playing "air gun" with those dogs that mark off a gun barrel.

They respond to us, our movements, and our gestures. The gun doesn't need to be there.
 
#20 ·
I always put my hand down for releaseing on a mark. That is so she knows not to go until my hand comes down over he head, not on the side. On a blind I use my hand on the side of her head for direction. The hand is not put down until she is in a good postion. I use heel if I need to swing her but in in and here to pull head over if needed and tape my leg for lineing if needed.
 
#22 ·
So let me get this straight... some of you think that putting a hand down over a dog's head is going to keep them from breaking?????? Just curious.....:confused:
 
#27 ·
I haven't ever had a remote sit on marks, have had it on blinds, typically in a front face position 10-20 yards in front of me. Occasionally I have had my dog creep out in front of me, after my number is called I will reheel, sit and send with hand down, or if it's just a foot or so over the line I will lean forward, put my hand down and send.

John
 
#28 · (Edited)
its funny that I just had this conversation with Lanse at 6:30 this morning when we had our weekly phone call to BS about the past weekend's events (PRTA in Ga)....one of the marks in the 4th series of the Am was a short check down variety, here is Lanse's play by play description almost verbatim
Lanse : "as Rosa came back with the bird I could hear Rorem in my ear saying Lanse, this is a no hands soft send...so I kept the bird in her mouth and watched her breathing before taking the bird from her mouth, then I sweated her for just a bit until her breathing became less heavy,I leaned over and gave her a soft send no hands whisper Rosa....she nailed it..the Lanse of old would have put his hand down and given a booming back and probably sent her into Charlie Hays' bedroom (trial was held at his property) "
there is you handling lesson for the day thanks to David Rorem via Lanse...it just depends on the situation
 
#36 ·
Someone mentioned a camparison to the use of the hand and marking off the gun. IMO it's apples and oranges.

As was explained before the hand is a cue that says "yes, you are pointed and looking in the right direction". This is after the dog has already seen the marks go down. You are simply communicating which mark he is to get (selection).
On a blind it says the same thing. Yes, that's right......"Back!"

Marking off the gun is done as an execise to get the dog to move his head with you as the birds are thrown/shot.
Sure you can do the same thing with your hand but the dog is following the motion not looking at what you are pointing at.

Bert
 
#52 ·
Someone mentioned a camparison to the use of the hand and marking off the gun. IMO it's apples and oranges.
That was me.

As was explained before the hand is a cue that says "yes, you are pointed and looking in the right direction". This is after the dog has already seen the marks go down. You are simply communicating which mark he is to get (selection).
On a blind it says the same thing. Yes, that's right......"Back!"
If you read my comment in it's entirety, you might see I understand this. In the interest of brevity, I did not go into great detail ... others have done that very well ... but since I'm being quoted out of context, let me expound.

It's all about communication with your dog at the line. There are many "languages" you can use to communicate with our dog. Some are more efficient and effective than others, but they are ALL built on consistency and the dog's expectations. Dogs are capable of understanding and responding to a much larger "vocabulary" than many think, and over time a good trainer/handler and their dog learn to understand each other in ways observers may not recognize.

The conventional method of push/pull with subtle body movements influences the dog to look where you want him to. The dog tells you, through his body language, what is going on his head and when you see that he understands what you want, the hand confirms his expectation and says "yes, that's what I want". Several other variations apply, based on what your dog is telling you, and what you need to tell him in the moment.

Not being someone who wants to reinvent a wheel that works well, I follow these principles and they work for me. I keep it as simple as possible but as varied as necessary in that situation.

Marking off the gun is done as an execise to get the dog to move his head with you as the birds are thrown/shot.
Sure you can do the same thing with your hand but the dog is following the motion not looking at what you are pointing at.
I am an avid learner ... or try to be ... and study the advice of those who I believe in and whose advice I respect (maybe that's what Marvin calls "pelts"). I have observed that it is rare to ever hear these people use words like, "NEVER", "IMPOSSIBLE", etc. and I get somewhat irritated when some nameless internet cowboy regularly announces, with absolute authority, a black and white
law" which a newcomer may take as gospel just because it is spoken with convincing confidence.

So that's a long-winded clarification of my previous 2-sentence post. I am not disagreeing with the consensus opinion on the use of the hand. I'm calling out someone who said, "it's impossible ..... ", and I used the analogy of a dog learning to look in a particular direction by seeing which way the gun is pointed.

If I can make a dog key in on a slot between two trees at 250 yds. using only my knees, why could I not get a line to an HRC Seasoned blind using only my hand or a gun barrel if I chose to spend the time? I don't think it would be the most efficient way, and that is why I don't try it. But for purposes of debate, show me why it's impossible.

JS
 
#41 ·
Norma Lee, I don't drop my hand before sending my dogs on the go-bird.

But, the bastages still occasionally break when I drop my hand on a blind, or a memory bird.
Go figure.
 
#45 ·
I think that it's more of a NOT putting your hand down, might keep them from breaking.
You may want to ask Some top FT pro's about that. There are many Dogs trained to not go unless a hand is dropped in first. There are no absolutes in dog training. And this may be as common as not using a hand to send on the go bird. As with many problems ,,in this case breaking,,,sequences become important. They can represent what is about to occur or not occur through conditioning.



Pete
 
#51 ·
Hunting does not require precision. And dogs are allowed to wear training equipment during hunting. I have never run marks remotely at hunt tests or FT's and I have run under Steve Parker many times who in my opinion is the King of unique set ups.. The chances of getting remote marks are slim ,but in hunting my dogs are remote most of the time. And they know the difference. I think they are talking about breaking as a major problem in a dog not just a general training sequence in which even the steadiest of dogs are fully capable of breaking at some point in their life.
Pete
Very nice posts Pete. There certainly not any absolutes in training except IMO to train smart.
 
#47 ·
So, the hand doesn't solve the creep, but it solves the break? If you use your hand for "steadiness" cue...ie the dog does not go until it sees the hand, what do you do when you are hunting? You have the hound sitting on a muskrat hut 20 yds away, because that is the only dry ground for him to sit, and you are over hiding in the cattails...do you then have to go over and send the dog on the mark? Just curious...
Hunting does not require precision. And dogs are allowed to wear training equipment during hunting. I have never run marks remotely at hunt tests or FT's and I have run under Steve Parker many times who in my opinion is the King of unique set ups.. The chances of getting remote marks are slim ,but in hunting my dogs are remote most of the time. And they know the difference. I think they are talking about breaking as a major problem in a dog not just a general training sequence in which even the steadiest of dogs are fully capable of breaking at some point in their life.
Pete
 
#48 ·
I guess that's the difference between AKC and NAHRA....we see a couple of remote sits every year and have to be ready for it, as it will invariably come up, and that is probably the reason I personally don't rely on the hand. Of course, hunting is different than testing, but why spend the first part of the training season retraining the sequence that you haven't been using during the hunting season? Not saying one is right or wrong, but if you don't train and test like you hunt, it seems that you undo a lot of your training. FT are altogether a different animal, and I could see the benefits of the hand in that game...
 
#58 · (Edited)
I find it hard to put a hand over my dogs head, when I'm aiming and handling a gun, thus the Dog better be able to mark and wait for his name, without it. On blinds, my dogs just seems to want to avoid the hand, it pushes their head in weird directions. Thus I use my knees and legs to move them, and try to keep my hands in my pockets, if I can keep them there for the entirety of the blind, I get really happy ;).
 
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