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Thread: Hand Down on Marks & Blinds

  1. #41
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbr View Post
    norma lee who
    Norma Lee, I don't drop my hand before sending my dogs on the go-bird.

    But, the bastages still occasionally break when I drop my hand on a blind, or a memory bird.
    Go figure.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tome View Post
    Yes.... OK... but I can say that I NEVER put my hand down and only release my eager beaver by his name. I have never sent my dog on a go-bird without saying his name. I believe that after thousands of marks, all run the same way with the same cadence, dogs do learn. He has taken off a few times without me saying his name, so its not perfect...... well... you get the picture....

    I know that with lots of repetition, hopefully dogs learn that they cannot go without being released. I'm just not convinced that it's the hand over their head that keeps them steady, any more than not hearing their name as the cue they can go. But, that's just me and my problem!!!!
    I gotta go along with Mike here. I understand the proper use of the hand but don't think it necessary. I don't use the hand and I have had a problem with dogs breaking and creeping but it is not due to the lack of hand use it has been due to lack of teaching steady, I mean seriously conditioning steadiness. My current dogs are 90% better than my past dogs and I have never used the hand with either. 95% of the people I watch that use their hand do it wrong and is totally ridiculous and worthless. Not saying it is not a tool when used properly but mostly it is not. John would it not make more sense to the dog if you ALWAYS used the hand instead of just on the go bird? No hand down on memory bird means Huston we have a problem, here heel, hand down all systems ready to launch and we have lift off. Just seems to me it would be more black and white to the dog to always use it rather than sometimes yes sometimes no.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Dogs are incapable of "aiming".
    Even if they had arms, hands, and fingers, they would not be able to aim a rifle.
    Rather, they react and respond to our gestures, and movements.

    Therefore, it is impossible to give a dog a "line" with your hand. Even though lots of people try.

    For "big" movements, I use my left leg. For minute movements, I use my right leg.
    At first, I move the dog's body with my left, and it's head with my right. As the dog becomes more comfortable, and proficient, I can move only his head with my left leg, and his eyes with my right leg.

    When he is looking where I want, I say "good". When he looks away, I say "no".
    When he stays locked in, where I want him to look, I drop the hand, and say "BACK".
    Interesting - but I completely disagree! Well, I would being British, wouldn't I! LOL
    Here we don't do much push/pull here/heel. It is virtually unused. All lining is done with the arm.

    Some dogs are better at taking a line and focusing than others. But my dogs watch my hand/arm in the air as it comes down to its pointing position, and then you can actually see them drop off the hand onto the point in the distance. I should maybe try and video this. We teach them to do this by using white dummies or an object to focus on that you are pointing to.

    So, for our blind sendaway we point to the place and then drop the hand into a stationary position for the dog to lock a line off of, and then release with a verbal command, with the hand/arm staying absolutely stationary where it is.

    There have been studies done on animals and 'pointing'. Kaminski I think. Showing that dogs understand pointing better than chimps etc. Brief bit here, but you would need to look up Kaminski for the full studies: http://news.discovery.com/animals/zo...ans-120208.htm
    Last edited by kennel maiden; 04-09-2013 at 06:30 AM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennel maiden View Post
    Interesting - but I completely disagree! Well, I would being British, wouldn't I! LOL
    Here we don't do much push/pull here/heel. It is virtually unused. All lining is done with the arm.

    Some dogs are better at taking a line and focusing than others. But my dogs watch my hand/arm in the air as it comes down to its pointing position, and then you can actually see them drop off the hand onto the point in the distance. I should maybe try and video this. We teach them to do this by using white dummies or an object to focus on that you are pointing to.

    So, for our blind sendaway we point to the place and then drop the hand into a stationary position for the dog to lock a line off of, and then release with a verbal command, with the hand/arm staying absolutely stationary where it is.

    There have been studies done on animals and 'pointing'. Kaminski I think. Showing that dogs understand pointing better than chimps etc. Brief bit here, but you would need to look up Kaminski for the full studies: http://news.discovery.com/animals/zo...ans-120208.htm
    I just scanned the abstract of the study. Interesting. Thank you, kennel maiden.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

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  5. #45
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    I think that it's more of a NOT putting your hand down, might keep them from breaking.
    You may want to ask Some top FT pro's about that. There are many Dogs trained to not go unless a hand is dropped in first. There are no absolutes in dog training. And this may be as common as not using a hand to send on the go bird. As with many problems ,,in this case breaking,,,sequences become important. They can represent what is about to occur or not occur through conditioning.



    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  6. #46
    Senior Member Labs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I haven't ever had a remote sit on marks, have had it on blinds, typically in a front face position 10-20 yards in front of me. Occasionally I have had my dog creep out in front of me, after my number is called I will reheel, sit and send with hand down, or if it's just a foot or so over the line I will lean forward, put my hand down and send.
    John
    So, the hand doesn't solve the creep, but it solves the break? If you use your hand for "steadiness" cue...ie the dog does not go until it sees the hand, what do you do when you are hunting? You have the hound sitting on a muskrat hut 20 yds away, because that is the only dry ground for him to sit, and you are over hiding in the cattails...do you then have to go over and send the dog on the mark? Just curious...

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    So, the hand doesn't solve the creep, but it solves the break? If you use your hand for "steadiness" cue...ie the dog does not go until it sees the hand, what do you do when you are hunting? You have the hound sitting on a muskrat hut 20 yds away, because that is the only dry ground for him to sit, and you are over hiding in the cattails...do you then have to go over and send the dog on the mark? Just curious...
    Hunting does not require precision. And dogs are allowed to wear training equipment during hunting. I have never run marks remotely at hunt tests or FT's and I have run under Steve Parker many times who in my opinion is the King of unique set ups.. The chances of getting remote marks are slim ,but in hunting my dogs are remote most of the time. And they know the difference. I think they are talking about breaking as a major problem in a dog not just a general training sequence in which even the steadiest of dogs are fully capable of breaking at some point in their life.
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  8. #48
    Senior Member Labs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Hunting does not require precision. And dogs are allowed to wear training equipment during hunting. I have never run marks remotely at hunt tests or FT's and I have run under Steve Parker many times who in my opinion is the King of unique set ups.. The chances of getting remote marks are slim ,but in hunting my dogs are remote most of the time. And they know the difference. I think they are talking about breaking as a major problem in a dog not just a general training sequence in which even the steadiest of dogs are fully capable of breaking at some point in their life.
    Pete
    I guess that's the difference between AKC and NAHRA....we see a couple of remote sits every year and have to be ready for it, as it will invariably come up, and that is probably the reason I personally don't rely on the hand. Of course, hunting is different than testing, but why spend the first part of the training season retraining the sequence that you haven't been using during the hunting season? Not saying one is right or wrong, but if you don't train and test like you hunt, it seems that you undo a lot of your training. FT are altogether a different animal, and I could see the benefits of the hand in that game...

  9. #49
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labs View Post
    I guess that's the difference between AKC and NAHRA....we see a couple of remote sits every year and have to be ready for it, as it will invariably come up, and that is probably the reason I personally don't rely on the hand. Of course, hunting is different than testing, but why spend the first part of the training season retraining the sequence that you haven't been using during the hunting season? Not saying one is right or wrong, but if you don't train and test like you hunt, it seems that you undo a lot of your training. FT are altogether a different animal, and I could see the benefits of the hand in that game...
    I'm not trying to talk you into anything, I really don't care if you put your hand down or don't, I was just responding to the OP's question with the rational for why 99% of field trailers do it the way they do. Obviously other approaches work as long as you are consistent.

    I started in NAHRA and love it, I've run a few just for fun with my all age dogs. One thing I really like about NAHRA, and feel is pretty realistic toward hunting is the fact that NAHRA lets you talk quietly to your dog as the birds are going down. That helps a lot in preventing a break. I do remember back in the day (1993-95) when I was running NAHRA, it was fairly common to have your dog sitting outside the blind with the handler inside. I wasn't training field trial style back then, and lucky for me being a newbie, I had a very-very steady dog, I think I just released him on his name back then. If I took one of my current AA dogs to a NAHRA now and had a remote sit, I would probably just say his name.

    I do disagree with you on it being a problem to allow a different standard while hunting versus field trial training. I trained for and ran hunt test NAHRA and AKC from 1993-2000 and field trials from 1995 to present. I take every hunting season off from October first to the beginning of January. I literally do not train even once during that time period, I hunt with and without a collar as my dogs will certainly break on those first few birds of the season (a well timed correct solves this), I don't make my dogs handle over points or down shorelines when it is quicker and safer to let them run the bank, in short I hunt them way different than what they have to do in field trial training. The remarkable thing about this is that their first day back in training after hunting season, they train as if we never took a day off. I learned a long time ago that these dogs are situational, they really understand the difference between hunting, training and field trialing and act accordingly. Another benefit is those three months off from training really relaxes them and they start up again with a great attitude.

    John

  10. #50
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I'm not trying to talk you into anything, I really don't care if you put your hand down or don't, I was just responding to the OP's question with the rational for why 99% of field trailers do it the way they do. Obviously other approaches work as long as you are consistent.

    I started in NAHRA and love it, I've run a few just for fun with my all age dogs. One thing I really like about NAHRA, and feel is pretty realistic toward hunting is the fact that NAHRA lets you talk quietly to your dog as the birds are going down. That helps a lot in preventing a break. I do remember back in the day (1993-95) when I was running NAHRA, it was fairly common to have your dog sitting outside the blind with the handler inside. I wasn't training field trial style back then, and lucky for me being a newbie, I had a very-very steady dog, I think I just released him on his name back then. If I took one of my current AA dogs to a NAHRA now and had a remote sit, I would probably just say his name.

    I do disagree with you on it being a problem to allow a different standard while hunting versus field trial training. I trained for and ran hunt test NAHRA and AKC from 1993-2000 and field trials from 1995 to present. I take every hunting season off from October first to the beginning of January. I literally do not train even once during that time period, I hunt with and without a collar as my dogs will certainly break on those first few birds of the season (a well timed correct solves this), I don't make my dogs handle over points or down shorelines when it is quicker and safer to let them run the bank, in short I hunt them way different than what they have to do in field trial training. The remarkable thing about this is that their first day back in training after hunting season, they train as if we never took a day off. I learned a long time ago that these dogs are situational, they really understand the difference between hunting, training and field trialing and act accordingly. Another benefit is those three months off from training really relaxes them and they start up again with a great attitude.

    John

    Very nice post. I like the acknowledgement of what is practical while hunting.

    As for the hand---In my opinion, just another cue. It doesn't matter what cue you use, as long as you are consistent and don't change any other verbal and/or body language. For a high drive dog one cue may work better than another, i.e. verbal, visual, combinations, etc. Stimulus discrimination.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

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