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What do you look for in a pup and in what order

10K views 51 replies 27 participants last post by  Aussie 
#1 ·
And maybe you all can suggest more qualities I haven't considered. But here is my list (and the way I define the terms) in no particular order:

Drive (not an indifferent molecule in his/her body. Wants the retrieve more than anything else at that moment, implies intensely focused power.)

Style (see "drive" above but add a thrill to watch)

Tenacity (doesn't hold a grudge. Wants to work even after receiving a correction. Not a drama queen)

Trainability (very much connected to tenacity above... but add a genuine desire to please)

Good looks (a dog that has the chiseled labrador head and an athletic body)

Off switch (can relax when appropriate)

Solid health (obviously)

Superb marker (That part of marking that is hard-wired... the neurological eye-brain connections)

Good nose

Water lover ("aquatic")

"Sagacity" (smarter than his/her handler)

I'm not sure in what order I'd put these. I am picking forum members' brains pre-emptively. One of my old boys won't be with us for much longer and I'm trying to keep my eye on the future. When the time comes I'd like to know which studs throw pups with the best assortment of the best genetic gifts.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

PS: I would hazard a guess that this is well plowed ground on this forum, but as seasons come and go, particular lines emerge as true winners. I'm not familiar with the most sought after studs... so if you have some ideas...
 
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#3 ·
Both can be diminished, even destroyed with poor training, but you can't create what God didn't put there.
 
#6 ·
Natural marking ability.
Bottom.

Neither one can be trained in, and neither one can be witnessed in a puppy.
I know a couple of guys who won the whole enchilada that would disagree with your opinion :).

But as Howard said there are lots of folks who know how to diminish what the pup starts with.
 
#18 ·
Thank you Susan :). I started in this sport long before most here were born, my early mentor was a guy named Bob Sparks, who was a self taught amateur trainer. The only guy we had to talk to was Guy Burnett. We had the discussion of "Bottom" & I thought his presentation of same to make a lot of sense. Bob felt that "bottom" was a refined attribute. Bob was also a very good college athlete, as many who play with dogs seem to be, so there is an understanding of what it takes to get where one needs to go & how it's nurtured. He owned Butte's Blue Moon, trained him from scratch after getting him @ 6 months untrained. Moon was the greatest marking dog I have ever seen though you would not have known it when he was 13 months old :). He was sold to Bing Grunwald @ 28 months with 30 derby points in 9 trials, QAA, because Bob had leukemia & no longer had the energy to deal with more than 1 dog. When I ran into Bon's brother @ Tottens' trial the 1st words out of his mouth were "Butte's Blue Moon" when I intro'd myself :cool:. Clint knew John Luther well.

I really dislike the finality of some folks expressing an opinion with little training experience or few pelts, if any, to back themselves & the possibility some folks might take that poorly thought out message as gospel. Few people here have the training background to believe their way is correct because if they did they would understand that there are always exceptions to the generally thought rule of thumb. Even the pro I trained with for years did not feel he knew it all, though I know he knew an awful lot & has the pelts to prove that :).

I could go through a ton of those exceptions - but I'll pass a few on: 1) why is it some folks can pick a pup 1st from a litter, train with folks who got a later pick, but always end up with a failure while others go on to great success? 2) why do some folks seem to have dogs that never pass OFA while dogs from the same litter all pass? 3) how does someone pick a pup from a repeat breeding where the previous breeding probably had close to a quarter of a mil spent on training & campaigning with one derby lister, yet manages to end up with a dog that will be in the HOF & rightfully so?
Marvin, what is your definition of a pelt?
 
#19 · (Edited)
Marvin, what is your definition of a pelt?
I'm not Marvin, but.......

Small part of Jim Gonia's or other top pro's wall:



Howard's wall:



Some people talk a great line of BS. What have they accomplished? At the end of the season are there any pelts or is it all BS?

Dad was a trapper, with pelts regards,
 
#4 ·
What you've listed is great. It's what most want. Now all you've got to do is try to predict which mating will produce that and be able to pick "the one" in that litter that has most of what you want at 7-8 weeks old.
 
#5 ·
I guess an even better question would be "which of these can you determine a 7-8 wk old pup has or doesn't have?"

I think this is why a solid evaluation of the parents is important, but it's still a gamble!

Another good question would be "Which of these can be trained in & which cannot be?"
 
#8 ·
I think all of those traits are what you want in a dog, but hard to see those in an 8 week pup. I'm sure all of the members on this forum are far more experienced than I when it comes to picking a pup. As much as we all want the best pup out of the litter, I'm sure there is usually more than one pup that could be developed into a winner.
 
#12 ·
Seller with the ability to back up their health guarantee. If they only breed once every three years a replacement pup isn't likely an option in the event of a genetic health issue. Just have to reword to get your money back, and then look to make sure they might actually have that money two years down the line.
 
#13 ·
Great thread and a very comprehensive list. The only thing is I would say health trumps all. All of those characteristics are almost meaningless if your pup is unhealthy or in and out of the vet a lot.
 
#15 ·
Okay then.

I think that I want a dog with natural marking ability, and bottom.
Because, I don't believe that either of those things can be trained into a dog. By anybody.
Also, I do not believe that those qualities can be witnessed in a puppy.

That's what I personally believe. But, I could most definitely be wrong.
 
#17 · (Edited)
It's the old "breed the best to the best and hope for the best."

If wishes and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
 
#20 ·
Several have mentioned "health". Maybe I've had a few glasses tonight and am feeling a little sorry for myself... but my young dog (went to the Master National last October) has a heart murmur. Low grade (2/6). May not ever cause problems... But it's just resistance, flow, viscosity and the Law of LaPlace, if you know your physics. (Really have to step away from the wine glass) Anyhow, there isn't anything you can do about that stuff. She's from good, honest (if not renowned) stock and came from a conscientious breeder. You takes what you gots.

I understand that when the litter is on the ground, you reach in and grab one. They're little pigs in a poke so to speak. But, if my old guy goes the way of all flesh this year, where do I start? What lines do I seek out?

Can you explain "bottom" to me a little more. Is it what I would call drive and tenacity? Or is there more to it than that? In who's off-spring are you seeing it?
 
#22 ·
.....Can you explain "bottom" to me a little more. Is it what I would call drive and tenacity? Or is there more to it than that? In who's off-spring are you seeing it?
I'd say that it's got something to do with drive, but a lot more to do with tenacity.

A dog with "bottom", is not easily influenced by "pressure".

And I believe that it's too unique and special, to be carried in a "line".
But, I'd say that the best of the best, are the ones that have it.

But, that's just my opinion, and I could certainly be wrong.
 
#23 ·
1. Good health
2. Within the breed standard but at the smaller end of the spectrum sizewise
3. Drive---give me the pup with the most drive
4. Not fat
5. Not fluffy

We're talking goldens, the nose is a standard feature.
 
#24 ·
Would you say, then, that "bottom" is when you've gone to your limit and have nothing left... you reach down and pull out just a little more?

To me that's a special sort of heroism that emerges only under special circumstances and is seen only in special individuals. Watched a 3 legged MH (missing foreleg) come back with the final bird of the test. It was a big duck, a long swim. That old gal was going under about every other stroke. But wouldn't quit.

A special dog and a special handler. Neither would quit.

"Bottom"
 
#25 ·
When you see it, you know it.
And it makes your knees weak, and might just bring a tear to your eye.

It's damn special, when you have a dog that has it.
 
#27 ·
Photograph Snapshot Vintage clothing Photography Room
Owners of Buttes Blue Moon
 
#30 ·
In the vein of "pelts", I usually mention to new retriever folks that join our club for help.... that everyone that has owned a retriever, hunting dog (insert your game here) is an expert even if only after their first dog. And retriever folks are full of advice on how a newby should do it. What I try to tell those new folks is....before you decide how much stock to put into the advice you get on dog training, first watch that person's dogs as they train and/or work them.

Howard, there might not have been many pelts on that wall but they look quite special. Harry
 
#39 ·
Howard, there might not have been many pelts on that wall but they look quite special. Harry
Howard has more "pelts" than that.... I'm not worried that he is going "neked" up there in Alaska.... :D
 
#41 ·
So I still don't know what a "pelt" is???

FC? AFC? A blue ribbon? Heck, some people may feel a Started title is a "pelt".

Then again, I know some who have so many FCs the only "pelt" they are looking for has an "N" in front of it. And when they do get that, there will be those who say it doesn't count unless they did it all alone with no help from anyone.

There's always another brass ring.

JS
 
#42 ·
I was brought up in the old school, rather keep one's mouth and be thought a fool, then open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Hopefully we have a bright following on RTF that can distinguish between the two . Many have helped me along the way. I respond as some do here to give back to the dog sports as my contribution that I owe to those who came before me. It is called insight. Marvin tried to make a change as an example with outing the judges that he felt through stats etc that perhaps shouldn't be judging. He was told he had too critical eye for lack of a nicer word. At the time I even had my feathers ruffled . Now after looking back and looking what is out there judging AKC field trials hmm maybe he is on to something. Eight point plus judges that don't even have all-dogs or run the stake they are asked to judge. The various programs out there are kinda like a college prof I had in criminal justice, he said , I don't have to see/be involved in a civil riot, I can just read about it to experience it. Now that went over big time to guys that were directly involved in civil disturbances as police officers and students in his class. I just have to read about dog training and don't have to really train dogs. Hopefully we can see the difference.
 
#45 ·
Well, I guess we will all have to wait until Marvin decides to enlighten us on what constitutes a "pelt"
 
#48 ·
... the first thing I look for in a pup is a great bitch that I know personally.
I would echo this - with a slight addition - "or someone I trust knows personally." For me, it all starts with the dam.
 
#47 · (Edited)
HA Loving the metaphors, I have no pelts, I've never ran FT's, oh wait I've ran one. I've a little green pelt, probably won't ever have anymore, as that type of trapping, is just not my choice of game. Now as far as Bottoms, I've seen good bottoms and I've seen weak bottoms, where shorts will slip w/o a belt. To me it seems like your most likely born with a good bottom, but it still needs to be maintained, or it may weaken ;). Still I can really get behind breeding for a great bottom ;).
 
#52 ·
Interesting thread, awesome topic............ already giving myself a headache, pondering!

Large breeding colonies from around the world have spent a lot of $$$, trying to save $$$ and time (resources!), in puppy testing, breeding studies, and then the effect of training/environment, in choosing the best dog for requirements.

Lotsa PHD students have been kept busy and no doubt in the future as genetic markers/tests which we probably only dream of, will be reality.

We need a few PHDs students in study retrieving/field requirements. I mean why is marking so poorly inherited...or can seem to be???

Polygenic mode of inheritance...multifactorial?

Why why why are whole litter from excellent pedigrees not making the grade...heck even if US field breedings.

How is CCL disease inherited. In Newfoundlands research is pointing to autosomal recessive.

Ramble ramble ramble me!
 
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