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Thread: What do you look for in a pup and in what order

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Marvin, what is your definition of a pelt?
    It's something picked up from Guy Burnett. We used to go to E Missoula to a great Steak house Saturday night after the trial. Guy used the term in one of his speech's he gave yearly for the crowd. Guy was someone who treated all of us as if we were special to the sport & maybe we were. As Guy said "you don't get trapping advice from a trapper with no pelts on his wall". Howard's picture says it all.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1tulip View Post
    .....Can you explain "bottom" to me a little more. Is it what I would call drive and tenacity? Or is there more to it than that? In who's off-spring are you seeing it?
    I'd say that it's got something to do with drive, but a lot more to do with tenacity.

    A dog with "bottom", is not easily influenced by "pressure".

    And I believe that it's too unique and special, to be carried in a "line".
    But, I'd say that the best of the best, are the ones that have it.

    But, that's just my opinion, and I could certainly be wrong.

  3. #23
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    1. Good health
    2. Within the breed standard but at the smaller end of the spectrum sizewise
    3. Drive---give me the pup with the most drive
    4. Not fat
    5. Not fluffy

    We're talking goldens, the nose is a standard feature.
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  4. #24
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    Would you say, then, that "bottom" is when you've gone to your limit and have nothing left... you reach down and pull out just a little more?

    To me that's a special sort of heroism that emerges only under special circumstances and is seen only in special individuals. Watched a 3 legged MH (missing foreleg) come back with the final bird of the test. It was a big duck, a long swim. That old gal was going under about every other stroke. But wouldn't quit.

    A special dog and a special handler. Neither would quit.

    "Bottom"

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1tulip View Post
    Would you say, then, that "bottom" is when you've gone to your limit and have nothing left... you reach down and pull out just a little more?

    To me that's a special sort of heroism that emerges only under special circumstances and is seen only in special individuals. Watched a 3 legged MH (missing foreleg) come back with the final bird of the test. It was a big duck, a long swim. That old gal was going under about every other stroke. But wouldn't quit.

    A special dog and a special handler. Neither would quit.

    "Bottom"
    When you see it, you know it.
    And it makes your knees weak, and might just bring a tear to your eye.

    It's damn special, when you have a dog that has it.

  6. #26
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Thank you Susan . I started in this sport long before most here were born, my early mentor was a guy named Bob Sparks, who was a self taught amateur trainer. The only guy we had to talk to was Guy Burnett. We had the discussion of "Bottom" & I thought his presentation of same to make a lot of sense. Bob felt that "bottom" was a refined attribute. Bob was also a very good college athlete, as many who play with dogs seem to be, so there is an understanding of what it takes to get where one needs to go & how it's nurtured. He owned Butte's Blue Moon, trained him from scratch after getting him @ 6 months untrained. Moon was the greatest marking dog I have ever seen though you would not have known it when he was 13 months old . He was sold to Bing Grunwald @ 28 months with 30 derby points in 9 trials, QAA, because Bob had leukemia & no longer had the energy to deal with more than 1 dog. When I ran into Bon's brother @ Tottens' trial the 1st words out of his mouth were "Butte's Blue Moon" when I intro'd myself . Clint knew John Luther well.

    I really dislike the finality of some folks expressing an opinion with little training experience or few pelts, if any, to back themselves & the possibility some folks might take that poorly thought out message as gospel. Few people here have the training background to believe their way is correct because if they did they would understand that there are always exceptions to the generally thought rule of thumb. Even the pro I trained with for years did not feel he knew it all, though I know he knew an awful lot & has the pelts to prove that .

    I could go through a ton of those exceptions - but I'll pass a few on: 1) why is it some folks can pick a pup 1st from a litter, train with folks who got a later pick, but always end up with a failure while others go on to great success? 2) why do some folks seem to have dogs that never pass OFA while dogs from the same litter all pass? 3) how does someone pick a pup from a repeat breeding where the previous breeding probably had close to a quarter of a mil spent on training & campaigning with one derby lister, yet manages to end up with a dog that will be in the HOF & rightfully so?
    Cool story about Butte's Blue Moon....
    Susan

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  7. #27
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    09.jpg Owners of Buttes Blue Moon

  8. #28
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Thank you Susan . I started in this sport long before most here were born, my early mentor was a guy named Bob Sparks, who was a self taught amateur trainer. The only guy we had to talk to was Guy Burnett. We had the discussion of "Bottom" & I thought his presentation of same to make a lot of sense. Bob felt that "bottom" was a refined attribute. Bob was also a very good college athlete, as many who play with dogs seem to be, so there is an understanding of what it takes to get where one needs to go & how it's nurtured. He owned Butte's Blue Moon, trained him from scratch after getting him @ 6 months untrained. Moon was the greatest marking dog I have ever seen though you would not have known it when he was 13 months old . He was sold to Bing Grunwald @ 28 months with 30 derby points in 9 trials, QAA, because Bob had leukemia & no longer had the energy to deal with more than 1 dog. When I ran into Bon's brother @ Tottens' trial the 1st words out of his mouth were "Butte's Blue Moon" when I intro'd myself . Clint knew John Luther well.

    I really dislike the finality of some folks expressing an opinion with little training experience or few pelts, if any, to back themselves & the possibility some folks might take that poorly thought out message as gospel. Few people here have the training background to believe their way is correct because if they did they would understand that there are always exceptions to the generally thought rule of thumb. Even the pro I trained with for years did not feel he knew it all, though I know he knew an awful lot & has the pelts to prove that .

    I could go through a ton of those exceptions - but I'll pass a few on: 1) why is it some folks can pick a pup 1st from a litter, train with folks who got a later pick, but always end up with a failure while others go on to great success? 2) why do some folks seem to have dogs that never pass OFA while dogs from the same litter all pass? 3) how does someone pick a pup from a repeat breeding where the previous breeding probably had close to a quarter of a mil spent on training & campaigning with one derby lister, yet manages to end up with a dog that will be in the HOF & rightfully so?

    I can expand the Guy Burnett/ NFC Butte's Blue Moon story a touch further

    the Grandsire of Moon was NFC AFC Del Tone Colvin who was a son of NFC AFC Cork of Oakwood Lane...Roy McFall once told me that NFC Del Tone Colvin was the cornerstone to the Hiwood line of dogs because he was bred to Lady Roxanne of Muldoon which produced FC AFC Hiwood Stormy of Alaska and started the whole ball rolling

    Marvin also left out that Guy Burnett produced another great dog besides Moon in '69 NAFC FC Guy's Bitteroot Lucky

    Lucky had a daughter named Lucky Sootana who was bred to 2XNAFC Dee's Dandy Dude which produced NAFC FC Dude's Double or Nothin
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    I can expand the Guy Burnett/ NFC Butte's Blue Moon story a touch further

    the Grandsire of Moon was NFC AFC Del Tone Colvin who was a son of NFC AFC Cork of Oakwood Lane...Roy McFall once told me that NFC Del Tone Colvin was the cornerstone to the Hiwood line of dogs because he was bred to Lady Roxanne of Muldoon which produced FC AFC Hiwood Stormy of Alaska and started the whole ball rolling

    Marvin also left out that Guy Burnett produced another great dog besides Moon in '69 NAFC FC Guy's Bitteroot Lucky

    Lucky had a daughter named Lucky Sootana who was bred to 2XNAFC Dee's Dandy Dude which produced NAFC FC Dude's Double or Nothin
    Moon & Lucky were cousins - Henry Seidell was Moon's breeder, he also was instrumnental in Baird's Centerville Sam - I have a ton of human interest stories about those dogs in that era but no pictures, just didn't figure folks were interested. But do have all the Retriever News detailing their exploits . The pairing of Moon with his new owners is one unto itself & worthy of it's own thread. BTW, Dee's Dandy Dude was a competitor at the same time I had a nice Derby dog so know lot's about him.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member HarryWilliams's Avatar
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    In the vein of "pelts", I usually mention to new retriever folks that join our club for help.... that everyone that has owned a retriever, hunting dog (insert your game here) is an expert even if only after their first dog. And retriever folks are full of advice on how a newby should do it. What I try to tell those new folks is....before you decide how much stock to put into the advice you get on dog training, first watch that person's dogs as they train and/or work them.

    Howard, there might not have been many pelts on that wall but they look quite special. Harry
    "Sometimes we just gotta do what is right". Jerry 2006

    See ya in the field. HPW

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