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Thread: FF- How do i know when my pup "Gets it"?

  1. #21
    Senior Member JoeOverby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    "I looked back on the FF posts to see if my particular problem has been asked and answered and i don't see it addressed so i hope someone can help me out.

    7 month old
    BLF, Obd. trained, here, heel, sit, hold, with Collar. I started on a table, using ear pinch method, using SmartFetch, and we seemed to sail right through it. I progressed with e-collar, .5 and worked up to 1.5 which is where my pup seemed to respond appropriately. Stayed on table for about 3 weeks, training 15 min. sessions, 3 times a day, with fun bumpers at the end. When i could step away from the table, command fetch, and she grabbed it fast, and sat and held, consistently, we moved to ground. Ladder drill went fine. fetching smartly, and appropriately, holding while heeling. I then added birds into the mix, and pup balked at birds, so we went back to table, again with ear pinch, and got that corrected. Worked on ground work with birds which went great. Saturday, i trained with a pro. We worked on long fetches, which she did fine. A little nick here and there to speed up the return, but that was all. We then decided to do walking drills. When i nicked her to correct a non-honoring behaviour she "amped out". She ran away from me, rolled on the ground, in the mud, and refused to pay any attention to me. I had to grab her by her collar to get her to stop, calm down. The pro suggested that i have not done adequate " Pressure" work with her. He instructed me to start over, on the table, and apply more pressure to her. I went home and we started back on the table, at a 2.

    She started laying down a couple of times at the higher pressure, but i think we have worked through that. She is fetching smartly at each fetch, and sitting and holding as directed. She has had about 2 issues yesterday with laying down, and 1 today, however she is obviously under diress.

    Right now, i am feeling bewildered. She is snapping up the fetch, sitting and holding perfectly on the table. I am very carefully monitoring the timing of my nicks in correlation to the fetch command. We seem to be in sinc. I understand that i am teaching her that completing the fetch relieves the pressure,but when she does it perfectly each time, what am i doing? It was suggested that i do not move off the table until she understands how to react to pressure. What further indications will i have that i am not seeing right now. No yipping? no jumping around on the table? I am missing something vital here I know. And I need help understanding what it is. She had wonderful natural ability, and i do not want to damage that in any way.

    Any help and suggestions you can give, with be gratefully accepted.
    Dazed
    "
    So, you're wondering why your 7 month old puppy "wigged out" when you corrected it for not honoring another dogs work with the e-collar...when everything you've done up to this point with the e-collar meant to teach "go"...

    IMO, 7 month old puppies shouldn't be honoring ANYTHING. At that age, if they see it fall, they should be allowed to have it. Are you teaching go, or sit?

    Doesn't sound like a "fetch" issue at all...sounds like an OB/CC/de-bolting issue caused by overwhelming your puppy with the honor situation.
    Joe Overby
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeOverby View Post
    "
    So, you're wondering why your 7 month old puppy "wigged out" when you corrected it for not honoring another dogs work with the e-collar...when everything you've done up to this point with the e-collar meant to teach "go"...

    IMO, 7 month old puppies shouldn't be honoring ANYTHING. At that age, if they see it fall, they should be allowed to have it. Are you teaching go, or sit?

    Doesn't sound like a "fetch" issue at all...sounds like an OB/CC/de-bolting issue caused by overwhelming your puppy with the honor situation.
    Wow, thats even more of a surprise to me. In the past, i have been asked to join other more experienced handlers, whose dogs have progressed farther than my pup, and are anywhere from 6 months - 2 years older than my dog. We have taken turns working our dogs, and i have helped and received much help and suggestions. We attended a play day... and i was encouraged to handle my dog at a junior type level, on single marks, behind blinds, waiting our turn, which we did with no problems. A no Pressure situation, as was our experience last weekend. I did not expect my dog to honor anything, but i did wish to remind her that here, means here, and that running around wild was not an option. Basic Obedience stuff. Nothing More!

    So, if i read your response right, i should not be exposing my pup to a situation where she might be tempted to retrieve another dogs fetch. OK, i can do that, i certainly am not trying to overwhelm her, and am definetly not trying to teach her to honor.. We are not that far along in our training, either one of us, that much i know. What i did expect was for her to obey a simple obd. command of here. What i didn't expect was her reaction to that simple command, and the following observations that i have not pressure conditioned my dog properly. That is where i am bewildered. I have CC and FF'd her with great care. And at home in our training enviournment, she is working almost perfectly.

    I thought exposing her to playday, no pressure situations would be a good learning experience for both of us, as i have been encouraged to do. Right now, until i get this figured out, i will not be joining others in any type of situation, play or not, so i do not risk exposing her to undue, unhealthy pressure. I appreciate your observations, and suggestions.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04-08-2013 at 10:25 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    He is a member of this forum and chimes in frequently to help folks. You could PM him.

    [Edit] I see you have less than ten posts, which may be the minimum to make a PM. I'll PM him for you to check out this thread, in case he doesn't happen along.
    Thank you so much... i'd really appreciate that.. i am a firm believer in smartfetch.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    I get um honoring at a young age. but am a rope lover and tie out stake fan. I would not use an e-collar correction on a young dog for breaking. I would tug on the rope. And then if I had put my pup in an off leash situation to somehow go after another dogs retrieve I would go for the tried and true skamper and belly flop leg grab. Too many mixed signals to just zap um.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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  5. #25
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    Without getting into a whole lot of detail...my question would be how did your pup do with ear pinch, toe pinch, stick fetch? These steps, in my opinion preceded any e collar work concerning the trained response to the command - "fetch".

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpolley View Post
    Without getting into a whole lot of detail...my question would be how did your pup do with ear pinch, toe pinch, stick fetch? These steps, in my opinion preceded any e collar work concerning the trained response to the command - "fetch".
    I'll try to make this short and not convoluted description. When we got out pup at 8 weeks, we drove over 1000 miles to get her. As we stopped at rest stops on the way home we put her on a leash. She was a natural. Never seen anything like it. When we brought her home, we played with her in the house, throwing balls down the hall way. She loved retrieving them.. tons and tons of praise, and no expectation other than fun for her. As she grew, and weather permitted, we would take her outside to play in the field, we have 5 acres fenced, retrieving, running around. having fun. We started playing a game with her, having her stay, throw the dummy, then send her for it. it is a game that she loved. again no pressure, just play. Fast forward to 6 months old, i started obd. training, private lessons. The pro-trainer on the second lesson had me start teaching her to hold, and mark. however the trainer wanted me to have him FF her, and continue the training which i could nt afford. When i told the trainer that, the trainer said find someone else then. It was a disaster. Inadvertantly i got hooked up threw referral from a friend with other like minded folks, some kennel owners, some just enthusiasts who helped me finish the obd training. Seeing my pups ability they suggested that i take her farther with proper training, and see how she does. I got smartfetch, and Retriever training by hillman, and started in very small steps. Since the pup already knew hold, when i started her on the table, i followed smart fetch to the letter using ear pinch, she went through hold easily, and we progressed to fetch in small incremental careful steps. She grasped the concept fast. and was fetching off the table in no time. Still, without the collar, we practiced, making sure at each step she understood before moving on to the next step. I had CC her, according to smartfetch, making sure that all tasks were taught and performed on lead, with complete understanding and did not advance to collar until i was absolutely positive she understood. Same with FF. We did not leave the table, and start on ladder drills until i knew for sure that she understood the Fetch concept with collar stimulation necessary for her response. Again ladder drills were started on lead, no collar. She is a natural. A very smooth transition, no issues. Only then did i add in the collar, using the smallest stimulation necessary for her training.

    Again, all along the FF process, i watched closely for her to "Get it", regarding pressure conditioning. What did i miss, or do wrong, and how can i "Get it". Somewhere along the line, she is not equating stimulation stops when command is performed, or she wouldn't be trying to rub off her collar. This is the question that no one can seem to answer.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04-09-2013 at 08:57 AM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Dazed! Everyone is telling you the same thing---you overwhelmed your pup. But you are fixated on FF. Consider for a moment that your pup is in fact FF'ed like you think. You know your dog better than anyone. What do YOU think you should do?

    Do you have the rest of the Smartworks basics package? Do you know what debolting is?
    Renee P

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Dazed! Everyone is telling you the same thing---you overwhelmed your pup. But you are fixated on FF. Consider for a moment that your pup is in fact FF'ed like you think. You know your dog better than anyone. What do YOU think you should do?

    Do you have the rest of the Smartworks basics package? Do you know what debolting is?
    Thank you all so much.. I have stopped exposing her to any training type situation with other dogs. I also started the de-bolting process yesterday.

    Your observations and opinions have really helped me, and please know that the very last thing i want to do is overwhelm my girl. She means the world to me, and i'm in no rush but want to train her properly. I am not fixated on FF.. the pro thought i should be starting her on force to pile, and force to water by now,( i am not) and that He thought the problem was in FF because of her inappropriate response to stimulation and not equating performing command =stopping stimulation (for lack of a better description) I missed whatever cue i should have got regarding that, and that worries the heck out of me.

    I do understand that i may have overwhelmed her... and am taking immediate steps to make sure that doesn't happen again. Again thanks so much for pointing that out.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04-09-2013 at 09:46 AM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Caution I am NOT a Pro trainer,, I am a Bumbling Amature, so take the following for what its worth...

    It seems an easy situation to evaluate where the problem is... I dont Think its FF, but rather your collar conditioning....

    How is the dog OB on leash with 3 commands. Sit, Here, heel.?
    If it is good,and understands thosecommands, Then How is her reaction to collar stimulation when given those commands? Is her reaction good on lower levels?
    How is her reaction as you progress with a higher level with the collar? Did you do this?

    I wouls STOP using the collar in Field work!!!!!

    I would go back to basic OB and make sure she understnds those basic commands, then COLLAR Condition the dog correctly..
    I think its easy for a trainer to get bad resposes to collar pressure.

    You first asked how you tell if your dog "Gets It".. Go back and see if she "Gets It" with the simple commands she understands. Does she"Get It" with those?

    Gooser
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Caution I am NOT a Pro trainer,, I am a Bumbling Amature, so take the following for what its worth...

    It seems an easy situation to evaluate where the problem is... I dont Think its FF, but rather your collar conditioning....

    How is the dog OB on leash with 3 commands. Sit, Here, heel.?
    Excellent. she is very snappy, attentive, and right on the money.
    If it is good,and understands thosecommands, Then How is her reaction to collar stimulation when given those commands?
    Again, very good. Rarely needs correction, even with distractions, which i have been exposing her to.
    Is her reaction good on lower levels?
    Yes, 2 seems to be the #
    How is her reaction as you progress with a higher level with the collar? Did you do this?
    Yes, 2.5-3 really amped her out. over-reacted.

    I wouls STOP using the collar in Field work!!!!!

    I would go back to basic OB and make sure she understnds those basic commands, then COLLAR Condition the dog correctly..
    I think its easy for a trainer to get bad resposes to collar pressure.

    You first asked how you tell if your dog "Gets It".. Go back and see if she "Gets It" with the simple commands she understands. Does she"Get It" with those?
    Yes. she couldn't react better if she tried. Totally understands at this point.

    Gooser
    These are great questions, i hope my answers help.

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