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Thread: FF- How do i know when my pup "Gets it"?

  1. #11
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    I wasn't super concerned with her exuberance at trying to fetch the other dogs bird, i know that will be rectified with time and experience. I did however want to set a foundation that she isn't allowed to interfere with another dogs work, instead of letting her continue to think she gets to fetch everything herself, then have a problem to fix in the future.

    I am much more concerned with the observation of the pro that she does not understand the concept of "Pressure". Especially when she responds so well to the command of fetch, both ladder drills, and now back on the table.

    I haven't started force to pile yet, because if she isn't understanding the concept of "Pressure", it seems futile, and damaging. I guess the problem is that I thought she understood "pressure", nothing has changed in her (snappy)reactions, and i don't feel confident progressing any further until I can get this figured out.

    According to smartfetch, she has it figured out, but according to the pro, her rolling on the ground, trying to get away from the stimulation of the here, nick, here command, means she doesnt understand the "Pressure" concept yet.

    I really really don't want to push her faster than she is capable, and am trying to be very careful and observant of her behaviour.

    Thanks so much.
    I've made a follow up post since the one you've quoted and addressed in this post.

    Feel free to absorb the follow up and see if any of it sticks. It may be "wrong". It may be "right".

    Good luck, and be fair to your pup!

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Hi Dazed,

    I am not telling you that my view is absolute. Some on here do that and I want to acknowledge that you can accept, or not, my opinion.

    I really appreciate your input.
    I'll start with a question. How many times had your dog honored in this situation on lead? How did that work out for you? Did your dog try to break? If so, what did you do about it? How did your pup respond? What lead you to decide that it was time to honor with a 7 month old puppy offlead?
    We have attended 2 picnic events. both times on lead. Of course she was exuberant when watching other dogs work, but she was easily corrected with lead commands only. (I should note here that all our training so far has started on lead, and not advanced to collar work until she thoroughly understands the comands) I understand that collars are to reinforce known commands, not teach.

    Here's what I'm trying to highlight for you: If you find yourself saying "I wonder if pup can do X". There is a pretty good chance that you are about to test, your puppy. We should test very little. We should TRAIN virtually always. Your puppy will only be young and in this absorbent sponge for exposure phase, for a brief time. You get only one chance to introduce a pup to a concept the first time. It makes sense to me to optimize the chance for success - not to "test".
    As we worked through the process so far, the only 'TEST" i did was on "Hold". with ear pinch only, not collar. She fully understands that.

    In contrast, in my personal opinion, if you are training at a good pace, you should be pretty darn confident that pup WILL do the next task. Or at least that pup darn SHOULD do the next task.
    I am watching her closely. She seems to learn very fast, and i am cognizant not to push her past her ability. I thought because she was astute at ladder drills, we would be ready for force to pile. Does that help? (again, started on lead, then off lead with collar only after she mastered ladders on lead. She is doing very well off lead, with collar also on ladder drill)

    My concern on what's written about the e-collar use is that it feels like there may be too much focus on turning the collar into a remote control. The collar is not and won't be a remote. It is a tool just like your voice, your lead, a sit stick, a mat, a bumper....they are all tools to train and handle our dogs. The e collar is a communication tool. It is not a joystick.

    If you want your dog to honor off lead, your dog must first be exposed to obedience under gradually increasing levels of distraction. The good news is that apparently your up WANTS the bumper, wants the retrieve. That is a good thing.

    So rather than calling her back to my side when she tried to intercept the fetch of the other dog, using here, nick, here with the collar, I should have? At that point, i wasn't super concerned about the "Honoring" thing, (and i'm still not, we have bigger fish to fry) but i didn't want her to get into a habit of thinking all retrieves were for her. Again this was her first time working around another dog, so i expected exuberance from her. does that help?

    I'll gladly spend more time trying to communicate my view if you'd like.

    My suggestion is that you try to severe a mental connection between force fetching, levels of e-collar settings, and "turning off pressure" with the concept of being steady when honoring.

    I feel like you're trying to jump ahead many steps in advance and test your puppy.

    Again, the e-collar is just at tool to communicate to the dog. It is not a remote control.

    Make any sense? It's OK to say "No". (Feel free to print this thread out and show it to your pro!)

    Chris
    Everything you said makes perfect sense. thanks so much. I'm not concerned with the honoring thing right now. I only mentioned the "Honoring" thing because it was a pre-curser to what led up to what i believe is the actual issue. I do understand that we are talking about 2 completely different steps. My only focus is on FF, and the"appearance" that i have not taught correct "pressure" training. I am trying to understand where i have fallen down on "Pressure" conditioning, how to correct it, and more importantly how to recognize that i have corrected it. With the pup doing so well before our incident this weekend, i thought we were ready to move on to the next step, force to pile. Now i am being told i am not ready, get her back on the table, and start over. Any/all collar work is only being done AFTER my pup has a firm grasp of each command, and executes them well on lead only as the next progressive step.

    thank you chris for your insight.... i really need it and appreciate it.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04-08-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    ....Saturday, i trained with a pro......
    Is there a special reason that you aren't going to that Pro, with your questions?

    Because honestly, that person is in the best possible position to really help you.

    This is something that is best demonstrated and experienced.
    Not written and described.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Is there a special reason that you aren't going to that Pro, with your questions?

    Because honestly, that person is in the best possible position to really help you.

    This is something that is best demonstrated and experienced.
    Not written and described.
    The pro is currently training 15 dogs, and i didn't want to infringe on his time. Unfortunately i can't afford to pay a trainer, so I am attempting to FF on my own with smartfetch.

    there are so many talented knowledgeable people on the forum, i thought i could get some great advise / insite here.

  5. #15
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    What I don't get is why you think you need to work more on FF, when it was the here-nick-here that sent your dog over the edge.
    Renee P

  6. #16
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    The pro is currently training 15 dogs, and i didn't want to infringe on his time. Unfortunately i can't afford to pay a trainer, so I am attempting to FF on my own with smartfetch.

    there are so many talented knowledgeable people on the forum, i thought i could get some great advise / insite here.
    I'm sure he occasionally needs help throwing marks for his dogs.

    And you will learn more from training with somebody that knows what they are doing, than you'll learn from reading all the books, and watching all the videos that have ever been written or produced.

    A lot more.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    What I don't get is why you think you need to work more on FF, when it was the here-nick-here that sent your dog over the edge.
    the pro felt that my pup's reaction of rolling like a crazy dog on the ground at the nick described above was due to lack of appropriate pressure training during FF. I used 1.5-2. when i FF trained her.I was really surprised when i was told to get her back up on the table, and use higher # pressure to condition her correctly. the pro feels that she is not making the connection between performing command = no stimulation appropriately rather the pup was rolling on the ground to try to get away from the stimulation.

    She was doing so well at everything, i thought we had it licked.. guess not.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04-08-2013 at 03:35 PM.

  8. #18
    Senior Member rboudet's Avatar
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    Is she properly CC'd? Since your using Smart Works you should reach out to Evan and not the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    Is she properly CC'd? Since your using Smart Works you should reach out to Evan and not the internet.
    Thank you for the excellent suggestion regarding contacting Evan.... Could you tell me How?
    I really like Smartfetch, and have what i thought was great sucess, up until this weekend.

    I am certain that I am doing something wrong, not the dog.... and wish to correct it immediately, thus i thought posting a question on a Training forumwould help me out. Meanwhile i will continue to train on whistle daily; as we are training daily rather than occassionally, until i can get this figured out.

    Thank you everyone for your suggestions.
    Last edited by Dazed; 04-08-2013 at 10:14 PM.

  10. #20
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
    Thank you for the excellent suggestion regarding contacting Evan.... Could you tell me How?
    I really like Smartfetch, and have what i thought was great sucess, up until this weekend.
    He is a member of this forum and chimes in frequently to help folks. You could PM him.

    [Edit] I see you have less than ten posts, which may be the minimum to make a PM. I'll PM him for you to check out this thread, in case he doesn't happen along.

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