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  1. #31
    Senior Member Clay Warren's Avatar
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    The last part of pattern blinds that Lardy sets up has the blinds listed "A,B, and C" and the guns as "G1 and G2". If I take a dog up to that set-up cold, with orange bumpers at the ends of the pattern blinds and can run A, G1, B, C, G2, A or any other order with a couple or no handles I move on to taught and simple cold blinds with diversions.
    "Dont insult the alligator until you have crossed the river"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Does anyone know, would it be consistent with Lardy to direct dog to one of the blinds, or the diversion, and then handle them to a different destination?
    this is just me but i dont think that'd be beneficial in the least. kind of like training to fail. there's no way the dog could win (winning be lining the blind with no casts) to me the whistle is a very minor correction. anytime you blow a sit whistle its because your are trying to stop a behavior from happening or that is happening. if the dog takes off on the way you line him up and then you blow the whistle to cast him to the other blind that is telling the dog "you didnt run a straight enough line" i was lined up to this other blind (even though you weren't)

    anybody feel free to correct me on the whistle being a correction. it just seems like when my guy is running hard his head goes down a little when he hears that whistle because he's thinking "oh man i thought i had it right" then when he turns around he's eagerly awaiting the cast to get it right and get the bumper
    Last edited by blake_mhoona; 04-09-2013 at 01:59 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Warren View Post
    The last part of pattern blinds that Lardy sets up has the blinds listed "A,B, and C" and the guns as "G1 and G2". If I take a dog up to that set-up cold, with orange bumpers at the ends of the pattern blinds and can run A, G1, B, C, G2, A or any other order with a couple or no handles I move on to taught and simple cold blinds with diversions.
    thats the next setup i was going to go to after one more day of single diversions.

    do you think i should use a frozen bird on the marks as single diversions and eventually the above setup? or just stick to bumpers at this stage? to keep attitude the same?
    Last edited by blake_mhoona; 04-09-2013 at 02:01 PM.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I beleive there are MANY very nice dogs, that have never run a pattern blind...
    And there are many ways to teach a dog!!!
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  5. #35
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    this is just me but i dont think that'd be beneficial in the least. kind of like training to fail. there's no way the dog could win (winning be lining the blind with no casts) to me the whistle is a very minor correction. anytime you blow a sit whistle its because your are trying to stop a behavior from happening or that is happening. if the dog takes off on the way you line him up and then you blow the whistle to cast him to the other blind that is telling the dog "you didnt run a straight enough line" i was lined up to this other blind (even though you weren't)

    anybody feel free to correct me on the whistle being a correction. it just seems like when my guy is running hard his head goes down a little when he hears that whistle because he's thinking "oh man i thought i had it right" then when he turns around he's eagerly awaiting the cast to get it right and get the bumper
    Kenny Trott showed us something similar when he was out here last year, only using cold blinds. And I have seen other handlers with young dogs do something like I described.

    My dog did not learn the angle back casts from pattern blinds like she was supposed to---I did not understand what I was supposed to be doing. I was adding the diversions, but like you, did not have many opportunities to cast her away to the blinds using the angle back casts. So she didn't learn them. Doing something like sending her to one blind and then casting her to another would provide opportunities to use the casts for her to learn. I guess my real curiosity is what Lardy does when dog is not getting it.
    Renee P

  6. #36
    Senior Member Clay Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    thats the next setup i was going to go to after one more day of single diversions.

    do you think i should use a frozen bird on the marks as single diversions and eventually the above setup? or just stick to bumpers at this stage? to keep attitude the same?
    I have always ran them with birds and if you have been running them with bumpers you will probably see the suction factor/returning to old fall increase if you go to birds. I would definitely run the marks with birds and thaw them out instead of throwing them frozen.
    "Dont insult the alligator until you have crossed the river"

  7. #37
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    this is just me but i dont think that'd be beneficial in the least. kind of like training to fail. there's no way the dog could win (winning be lining the blind with no casts) to me the whistle is a very minor correction. anytime you blow a sit whistle its because your are trying to stop a behavior from happening or that is happening. if the dog takes off on the way you line him up and then you blow the whistle to cast him to the other blind that is telling the dog "you didnt run a straight enough line" i was lined up to this other blind (even though you weren't)

    anybody feel free to correct me on the whistle being a correction. it just seems like when my guy is running hard his head goes down a little when he hears that whistle because he's thinking "oh man i thought i had it right" then when he turns around he's eagerly awaiting the cast to get it right and get the bumper
    A dog doesn't line the three legs, because it has learned anything about lining a cold blind.
    The dog lines the three legs, because it has learned EXACTLY where they are.

    That ain't a good thing!

    That's NOT what you want to take away from the three-legged-pattern.
    Think about that really, really, really, hard.

    These drills are not about doing the drills. They are about teaching the dog what it needs to know, in order to not be overwhelmed by the next step in progression.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Clay Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Kenny Trott showed us something similar when he was out here last year, only using cold blinds. And I have seen other handlers with young dogs do something like I described.

    My dog did not learn the angle back casts from pattern blinds like she was supposed to---I did not understand what I was supposed to be doing. I was adding the diversions, but like you, did not have many opportunities to cast her away to the blinds using the angle back casts. So she didn't learn them. Doing something like sending her to one blind and then casting her to another would provide opportunities to use the casts for her to learn. I guess my real curiosity is what Lardy does when dog is not getting it.
    If you are referring to the angle back cast you could pretty easily do an 8 handed casting no-no drill. However, that takes us back to the debate of WW and 8 handed casting before patterns...
    "Dont insult the alligator until you have crossed the river"

  9. #39
    Senior Member Kevinismybrother's Avatar
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    Does anyone know, would it be consistent with Lardy to direct dog to one of the blinds, or the diversion, and then handle them to a different destination?
    this is just me but i dont think that'd be beneficial in the least. kind of like training to fail. there's no way the dog could win (winning be lining the blind with no casts) to me the whistle is a very minor correction. anytime you blow a sit whistle its because your are trying to stop a behavior from happening or that is happening. if the dog takes off on the way you line him up and then you blow the whistle to cast him to the other blind that is telling the dog "you didnt run a straight enough line" i was lined up to this other blind (even though you weren't)anybody feel free to correct me on the whistle being a correction. it just seems like when my guy is running hard his head goes down a little when he hears that whistle because he's thinking "oh man i thought i had it right" then when he turns around he's eagerly awaiting the cast to get it right and get the bumper
    I admit I am not the smartest trainer, so let me ask you this Blake,

    How is T and TT any different from what you are objecting to here? you line the dog up and stop it and recast to another pile in TRAINING. and you give the dog many "free runs" to the pile.
    "Too late smart, too soon old" - Now I finally get it Grandpa

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  10. #40
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    :kevinismybrother thank you for correcting me. i never really thought about that. maybe the topic mitty talks about is worth a little discussion.

    :copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step. seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals.

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