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Thread: handling question-line

  1. #41
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    :copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step..
    Yes.

    You ARE trying to "have to" handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    .....seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals........
    If your idea of "winning" is lining the legs, rather than by successfully handling to a place that the dog doesn't want to go, you are going to keep "winning" for the wrong reasons.

    When the dog "wins" for the wrong reason, it learns to do the WRONG THING.
    Because, doing the wrong thing, was what worked.

    If the dog is so thoroughly conditioned to return to each leg of the pattern blind, that it disregards a sexy diversion due to it's absolute certainty that it will "win" by lining that leg of the pattern, you have actually created a big problem for your early cold blinds.

    Because, cold blinds don't have the very element that the dog was relying on to "win".
    And since you so thoroughly reinforced the dog's reliance on knowing the destination, rather than relying on YOUR CAST, you shot yourself in the foot.

    Now you need to untrain. And THAT'S not going to be easy. It's probably going to get you..........
    more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals
    ..........that wouldn't have been a big issue, if you had spent more time worrying about handling on the three-legged-pattern, rather than lining the legs.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 04-09-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=blake_mhoona;1091913]:kevinismybrother thank you for correcting me. i never really thought about that. maybe the topic mitty talks about is worth a little discussion.

    :copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step. seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals.[/QUOTE]

    I think , if you spent enough time there,,, those issues would prolly have surfaced in Pile work, T and TT.. just like (requiring) a good crisp sit facing you,, a nice straight sitting front finish. an understanding of a verbal only back,,,, a nice straight line to the back pile with no flaring. No flaring from your side. a poison bird.... ect,, ect,,,

    I know in the past, I havent spent NEAR enough time on those critcle steps..(Pile, T and TT.)
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  3. #43
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    It's not the drills that matter.
    It's not the methods, that make the difference.

    It's what you get out of them.
    It's the objectives.

    There is no "perfect drill" that can't be done wrong.
    They all have the potential to teach dogs things that we DON'T want the dog to learn.

    The key is realizing that "beating" the drill isn't the objective. The objective is to train the dog.

  4. #44
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    :kevinismybrother thank you for correcting me. i never really thought about that. maybe the topic mitty talks about is worth a little discussion.

    :copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step. seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals.
    Blake, you might be interested in looking through this old thread:

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ch-angle-backs

    I'm hoping I can save you from some of my mistakes!
    Renee P

  5. #45
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MooseGooser;1091920]
    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    :kevinismybrother thank you for correcting me. i never really thought about that. maybe the topic mitty talks about is worth a little discussion.

    :copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step. seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals.[/QUOTE]

    I think , if you spent enough time there,,, those issues would prolly have surfaced in Pile work, T and TT.. just like (requiring) a good crisp sit facing you,, a nice straight sitting front finish. an understanding of a verbal only back,,,, a nice straight line to the back pile with no flaring. No flaring from your side. a poison bird.... ect,, ect,,,

    I know in the past, I havent spent NEAR enough time on those critcle steps..(Pile, T and TT.)
    Gooser, at what point did you teach poison bird blinds? On the TT?
    Renee P

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Blake, you might be interested in looking through this old thread:

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ch-angle-backs

    I'm hoping I can save you from some of my mistakes!
    i havent finished reading all of it yet but my approach is going to be much like wayne's. teach one side at a time using fetch and hand at 2'oclock then slowly drop fetch to just silent cast. then teach other side same way then work in a back pile then a side pile, etc. i think i understood lardy's approach on 8 handed casting because it was the same at 3 handed just adding extra positions so there was no need to elaborate on them any more than needed

  7. #47
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    See below link and the various comments especially by Dennis Voigt.

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ighlight=Lardy
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
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  8. #48
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=mitty;1091931]
    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post

    Gooser, at what point did you teach poison bird blinds? On the TT?
    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...hive/index.php


    Not a poison bird blind, but rather a poison bird
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 04-09-2013 at 06:25 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #49
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Link no worky, Gooser.

  10. #50
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Try this,, any better?

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...do-you-move-on

    Post #5 in particular...

    Threw a diversion bird a couple a three times,,, ( different sessions)

    had chairs,, other marks ect..

    Didnt spend a whole lot of time on it,, timming was at the end of TT and the dog was running it very consistently, only just enough ,, so the person training me told it was time to start casting wagon wheels,, then on to cold blinds...
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 04-09-2013 at 07:01 PM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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