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Thread: handling question-line

  1. #61
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    That settles it...Lardy has no clue what he is doing.
    Again........................
    Watch your training material again.

    And PAY ATTENTION to what is said about the purpose of doing diversions on the pattern blind field, and for doing the blind drills.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    No it's not.
    Watch your training material again.

    And PAY ATTENTION to what is said about the purpose of doing diversions on the pattern blind field, and for doing the blind drills.



    You can easily condition a dog that is just coming out of pile work, to drive back to a known destination.
    You can easily reinforce that conditioning, to the point that powerful suction does not influence the dog offline.


    But, the dog still doesn't know what a cast means.
    To the dog, no matter what cast you give, it just means to turn around and keep going back to the pile.

    That's not handling.
    That's not casting.

    It's conditioning that is worse than useless, for getting a dog to run real cold blinds.
    In order for a dog to be able to run a real cold blind, it has to rely on YOUR CAST, to get it to the destination.


    That's the whole point when you FIRST introduce a diversion mark you want it to be easy for the dog to understand what you want. Tell me a dog that in it's first introduction to a mark in the pattern blind field is going to line right past it to the blind. You will get plenty of casts and the dog understands what you want and learns to trust you. It is breaking things down and teaching the concept. Makes it much easier to transition to cold blinds. Is conditioning a dog to the point that powerful suction does not influence his line a bad thing??????? HMMMM worse than useless??????? My dogs seem to take my casts pretty darn well. Good enough to still be standing at the end of an open in a few cases.

  3. #63
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post

    That's the whole point when you FIRST introduce a diversion mark you want it to be easy for the dog to understand what you want.....
    The point is for the dog to successfully HANDLE, away from the diversion.
    Not for the dog to successfully line to a known destination.

    You WANT the dog to need to be handled.

    You DON'T want to so completely and thoroughly condition the dog to return to the known destination, that the suction to the pile, overrules the suction of the diversion.

    If you run so many diversions on the three-legged-pattern that the dog is LINING the legs, you have taught the dog the WRONG THING.

    It hasn't learned to HANDLE. Nor has it learned to line a cold blind.

    It's just been conditioned to return to an old blind.
    So powerful is that conditioning, that it overrides the dog's desire to go after a diversion, or a poison bird.

    Well, cold blinds don't have known destinations. So, what's going to get the dog there?
    After you run one cold blind, and send for the next, where is the dog going to want to go back to?

    Do you think that you might just have a fight getting ready to start? Well, it's because the dog is doing what you trained it to do!!!!!!
    Last edited by copterdoc; 04-10-2013 at 10:04 AM.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    The point is for the dog to successfully HANDLE, away from the diversion.
    Not for the dog to successfully line to a known destination.

    You WANT the dog to need to be handled.

    You DON'T want to so completely and thoroughly condition the dog to return to the known destination, that the suction to the pile, overrules the suction of the diversion.

    If you run so many diversions on the three-legged-pattern that the dog is LINING the legs, you have taught the dog the WRONG THING.

    It hasn't learned to HANDLE. Nor has it learned to line a cold blind.

    It's just been conditioned to return to an old blind.
    So powerful is that conditioning, that it overrides the dog's desire to go after a diversion, or a poison bird.

    Well, cold blinds don't have known destinations. So, what's going to get the dog there?
    After you run one cold blind, and send for the next, where is the dog going to want to go back to?

    Do you think that you might just have a fight getting ready to start? Well, it's because the dog is doing what you trained it to do!!!!!!
    Which program do you use?
    Kendall Layne

    HR(2xHRCH) Ashland's Big Black Ruby to Go SH
    Dorie's Lady of the Lake(1K bird club)

    Never play leap frog with a unicorn.

  5. #65
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    Which program do you use?
    Mostly TRT.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Mostly TRT.
    Mostly? Assuming you have modifications that fit for you right?
    Kendall Layne

    HR(2xHRCH) Ashland's Big Black Ruby to Go SH
    Dorie's Lady of the Lake(1K bird club)

    Never play leap frog with a unicorn.

  7. #67
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    Mostly? Assuming you have modifications that fit for you right?
    No one program, ever trained a dog.

    It's the philosophies, and overall approach that the program provides, that you need to understand in order to learn how to train a dog.
    In the end, the dog is trained by the trainer. Not by the program.

  8. #68
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Copterdoc, do you do field trials?
    Renee P

  9. #69
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Copterdoc, do you do field trials?
    No, I do not.

  10. #70
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Remember this is Gooser talkin....

    Copterdoc says a LOT of good things for everyone to consider.

    With my first 2 dogs, I had relativly meager success in HT's. I hunted both of them,, and they were nice to hunt with. Ran OK blinds... Hunting blinds.

    I followed (i thought) lardy. I watched and listened about reading the dog, moving on in so many days, trying to copy what I saw on the dvd,s...
    I like his program,, BUT,,

    I decided to get help with my new puppy...

    I have had it drilled into my head, to concentrate on teaching the dog to handel.. Teach the young dog to handel... be able to take many casts,, be able to take many whistles.. Concentrate and maintain that crisp ,square sit, and cast!!!!
    We went straight from a long dose ( almost 2 months) of Pile work, T and TT to the casting wagon wheel, to true cold blinds..
    WAY more time than I did with my first dogs...

    Those first cold blinds were ugly,, that was expected.. The blinds were run in 3's, with 3 bumpers at each location... you followed the dog out...
    The focus at first was using the concepts learned in the yard, and transferring it to the field. it was about the "sit",, the cast, and the change of direction..
    You were teaching the dog to HANDLE.......

    You followed the dog out, staying 50 to 75 yrd away from the dog. when the dog picked up the bumper, you would call the dog in,and move back quickly towards the line, and recieve the dog in a front finish position, at about the half way point, take the bumper, and give a back castPaying attention then to trying to keep the dog online, by HANDLEING....This also helped with momentum. when the dog picked up the second bumper at that first destination,, you moved quickly back to the original line, and recieved the dog at the heel position, then sent the dog for the last bumper of the original destination from the side send.. Didnrt take long, and the dog was lining that third time running hard, and straight.. This first position was usually the center blind of the three..

    Then you sent for the outside locations..... NOW,,, you REALLY have diversion.. the dog WANTS again to go back to that center location,, so again,,, you get the opportunity to teach and HANDLE. Working on the cast again, and the "sit". repeat the proceedure as in the irst location,, then run the last pile....

    Eventually, the dog learns to take a pretty good intitial line.. pretty good,, and at first the send may be slow and cautious on the first blind,, but over time all this improves.

    There is very little correction during this process. Prolly the only correction is for a slow ,sloppy sit,but other than that, all attrition, and teaching to handle..

    I remember doing pattern blinds with my first dogs, and they learned that very well. they ran the patterns with extream confidence,, but when I went to our first cold blinds with them,, they showed the same issues as the puppy I have now showed when ruuning her first blinds. They didnt handel all that well, because they were'nt given the opportunity to be handeled. They learned to basically IGNOR all the diversion,, and just run to the known pile and pick up the bird. They didnt really get that many casts and whistles, COMPARATIVELY, so,,,, We had to teach the Handeling part of COLD BLINDS anyways..

    Like I have repeatedly said,,, I have had it drilled into me to teach the dog to handle.. Try to take advantage of every opportunity to handle that you can. Dont miss that opportunity.. Thats what you are seeking,, the opportunity to teach the dog to handel..

    I am constantly reminded that I miss many opportunitied to handle, and I dont pay attention to a slow sit, a standard you have to keep high,, or you will loose it...

    I suck at this!!!! I find it very hard to kep all the "stuff" straight in my head when running the dog. I have been told it will get better for me over time also..
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 04-10-2013 at 11:28 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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