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Thread: handling question-line

  1. #1
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    Default handling question-line

    so working through pattern blinds with 1 year old CLM and no big deal thought well this was easy he was lining every one of them. till i added the stickman like lardy instructs in diversions. had to handle away from it and on to blind. ran it a few times like that. then threw mark retrieved mark and then ran blind again had to handle away from fall.

    my question is this:

    in the early stages of handling are you wanting the most straight line you can get or is it ok for a little veer. in other words when he was say 5-10 yards off the line right or left i was met with a dilema. do i follow the saying "Over to the gold, back to the truck" or do i just give him a right/left back and let him drift back on line at this young stage. i went with the over and he'd take it but by the time he ran 5-10 steps and i whistled he'd over ran the line so then it was an opposite over. eventually i went with a back if he was within 5-10 yards off the line and he soon drifted back on line. now if he was well off the line i would of def given an over. luckily i never allowed a huge drift to occur before giving a whistle

    obviously you want to keep high standards but at this early in the handling process do you have to build up the standard before you can keep it? or do you just start at the high standard and never drop down?

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    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    I don't care about lining the legs on the three-legged-pattern.

    I want the dog to go, when I say go. To stop when I say stop, and to carry a cast in the general direction that I give it.

    It's a transitional handling drill, that gets you away from the yard drills, and one step closer to handling in the field. You don't need the dog to line the legs. You need to develop casting momentum, and direction that you can take to the field.

    There are other ways to get it. But, the three-legged-pattern is a pretty good way to get there.

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    Listen to Lardy!!!! He talks about this in the video. On blind drills you are looking for a correction like this. That's the whole point of the drill.
    Last edited by Duckquilizer; 04-08-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I don't care about lining the legs on the three-legged-pattern.

    I want the dog to go, when I say go. To stop when I say stop, and to carry a cast in the general direction that I give it.

    It's a transitional handling drill, that gets you away from the yard drills, and one step closer to handling in the field. You don't need the dog to line the legs. You need to develop casting momentum, and direction that you can take to the field.

    There are other ways to get it. But, the three-legged-pattern is a pretty good way to get there.
    im not worried about him lining it either. but from what i take from your post you are saying that this drill is more about taking the casts rather than straight lines.

    so in essence if i know that a back will get him there but it wont necessarily be a straight line on paper then give it? this will translate into him knowing that my handles lead to blinds (or marks if need be)

    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    Listen to Lardy!!!! He talks about this in the video. On blind drills you are looking for a correction like this. That's the woodie point of the drill.
    i planned on re watching that scene tonight. i always re-read the manuals before i go out and start something new then when i run into problems or have free time make sure i'm doing everything correct via dvds
    Last edited by blake_mhoona; 04-08-2013 at 03:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    im not worried about him lining it either. but from what i take from your post you are saying that this drill is more about taking the casts rather than straight lines.

    so in essence if i know that a back will get him there but it wont necessarily be a straight line on paper then give it? this will translate into him knowing that my handles lead to blinds (or marks if need be)
    It's more about handling in a field "setting", than it is about lines.

    Your dog isn't going to learn how to run cold blinds in the field, until you are actually running cold blinds in the field. But, that's a pretty big leap for a dog coming off of the T and/or TT.

    The biggest problem for most dogs, is in taking and carrying a cast, for any significant distance, into the "unknown" on a cold blind.
    The three-legged-pattern, isn't "unknown". But, since there are three different "knowns", the dog isn't really sure which one it is being handled to.

    So, that gives it a chance to learn a little bit about handling in the field, because it has to be handled to the correct destination.
    The center leg is the toughest one. They will over-cast to the outside two legs, rather than take a straight right back, or straight back left cast.

    Through repetition, they learn to dig back on a back cast to the center leg, rather than just rotate until they see a place that they know a bumper is, and head for that place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    It's more about handling in a field "setting", than it is about lines.

    Your dog isn't going to learn how to run cold blinds in the field, until you are actually running cold blinds in the field. But, that's a pretty big leap for a dog coming off of the T and/or TT.

    The biggest problem for most dogs, is in taking and carrying a cast, for any significant distance, into the "unknown" on a cold blind.
    The three-legged-pattern, isn't "unknown". But, since there are three different "knowns", the dog isn't really sure which one it is being handled to.

    So, that gives it a chance to learn a little bit about handling in the field, because it has to be handled to the correct destination.
    The center leg is the toughest one. They will over-cast to the outside two legs, rather than take a straight right back, or straight back left cast.

    Through repetition, they learn to dig back on a back cast to the center leg, rather than just rotate until they see a place that they know a bumper is, and head for that place.
    so i should do these diversions (run blind, run blind w/stickman, retrieve mark w/stickman and run blind) on all 3 legs correct? because right now i have only had to handle once in a week of pattern blinds (with teaching and running all 3 legs together that is). now yesterday when we introduced a diversion on leg 1 i had to handle 3-4 times. so i'm guessing i should run the diversions all on 3 legs seperately and then work my way up to multiple diversions.

    again sorry if this is covered in the video its been awhile since i watched this section and will watch again tonight

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    so i should do these diversions (run blind, run blind w/stickman, retrieve mark w/stickman and run blind) on all 3 legs correct? because right now i have only had to handle once in a week of pattern blinds (with teaching and running all 3 legs together that is). now yesterday when we introduced a diversion on leg 1 i had to handle 3-4 times. so i'm guessing i should run the diversions all on 3 legs seperately and then work my way up to multiple diversions.

    again sorry if this is covered in the video its been awhile since i watched this section and will watch again tonight
    I don't think that you need to run multiple diversions on the three-legged-pattern.

    You are trying to get the dog to the point that it can run cold blinds. You don't want to stay on the three-legged-pattern so long that returning to an "old" blind becomes one of your biggest battles on your early cold blinds.

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    In Pattern Blinds, a dog will never take a direct line to the known pile. Most often it'll look like big bananas. You can try all you want to straighten the line out but it'll come back on the next send. This is all about momentum for the dog.
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    in the early stages of handling are you wanting the most straight line you can get or is it ok for a little veer. in other words when he was say 5-10 yards off the line right or left i was met with a dilema. do i follow the saying "Over to the gold, back to the truck" or do i just give him a right/left back and let him drift back on line at this young stage.
    I go with the literal cast first. 10 yards off line on a 100 yard blind is enough for me to stop the dog and give a straight back with the opposite hand. 10 yards off line in the middle of a 200 yard blind I'm thinking about handling. If I read or have read suction to the fall I'll handle when I read the suction even if the dog isn't off line very much. I'm trying to read the dog's momentum here.

    I'll try not to give the dog an over for a minor line correction. He knows where the blinds are in pattern blinds. If you give an over and he takes a couple steps in the over direction and then scallops back to the blind, you've just taught him to scallop his overs. I don't want my dogs doing that. I'd much rather teach him the literal cast and since he knows where the pattern blind is it could be enough for him to turn away from the suction of the fall to remember the pile and go right to that. Then the dog has a successful repetition of taking a literal cast to the blind. If he scallops or digs back the straight back you stop him again and repeat the cast. If he digs back again you stop him and use attrition. You are teaching casting away from an old fall here. I would much rather move up closer to the dog than go to an over momentum cast. Go to attrition by calling him in stopping and handling again from the closer position after the 2nd or 3rd dig back. Next time I set this up, I probably set the mark further away from the line to the blind than this one was.

    Don't get me wrong, everyone will have to go to a momentum cast now and then when training a young dog. I just try to not have to do them very much.
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    gotcha so in this case literal casting is fine and actually instructional to the dog ("oh yea i'm going after a blind not a mark") thats what i needed to hear.

    copterdoc i could of swore lardy showed a diagram where he sat up a multiple diversion where one was to the outside of the left pattern blind and another diversion between the middle and right pattern blind

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