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Thread: (HT Master Land/Water) What would you set up here?

  1. #21
    Senior Member John Montenieri's Avatar
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    I like working on skinny angles for water, cover. Multiple entry exits. Any of these marks allows you to correct for "cheating", avoidance and ultimately gives the dogs confidence to attack various water and cover features. Train harder than what your testing for. Quality instead of quantity. Keep your standards very high.
    An armed man is a citizen
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  2. #22
    Senior Member cpmm665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Montenieri View Post
    I like working on skinny angles for water, cover. Multiple entry exits. Any of these marks allows you to correct for "cheating", avoidance and ultimately gives the dogs confidence to attack various water and cover features. Train harder than what your testing for. Quality instead of quantity. Keep your standards very high.
    Thank You John. Appreciate all the shared knowledge.
    Cindy Von Sutphen

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    Reed Lanes Ladies Love a Rockstar CGC
    LPK's If I Can Call You Betty (da behbeh gurl)

  3. #23
    Senior Member Mark Littlejohn's Avatar
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    Depends.
    Training or test?
    Which way the wind is blowing?
    Where is the sun?
    Are all sides accessible?
    Can a dog get lost and wind up on those roads?
    Is there anywhere to hide a bird in the mowed fields?
    Without this info, its a 2-dimensional question in a 3-dimensional world....

  4. #24
    Senior Member cpmm665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Littlejohn View Post
    Depends.
    Training or test?
    Which way the wind is blowing?
    Where is the sun?
    Are all sides accessible?
    Can a dog get lost and wind up on those roads?
    Is there anywhere to hide a bird in the mowed fields?
    Without this info, its a 2-dimensional question in a 3-dimensional world....
    Are You a Dave Chappelle fan?
    Cindy Von Sutphen

    Dai Suki Desu MH
    Reed Lanes Ladies Love a Rockstar CGC
    LPK's If I Can Call You Betty (da behbeh gurl)

  5. #25
    Senior Member goldeneye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Littlejohn View Post
    Depends.
    Training or test?
    Which way the wind is blowing?
    Where is the sun?
    Are all sides accessible?
    Can a dog get lost and wind up on those roads?
    Is there anywhere to hide a bird in the mowed fields?
    Without this info, its a 2-dimensional question in a 3-dimensional world....
    I cant believe it took three pages for anybody to mention these missing factors. How did yall come up with the setups you drew without knowing the answers to these questions?

    I judged a test once where my co judge showed up with the setup he wanted to run scribbled on a napkin. He had never seen the grounds we had to work with and had no weather information at all. But he knew the setup he wanted already. This thread reminds me a bit of that assignment.

    I couldnt even begin to think of a setup without knowing the answers to Marks questions.

    Clark Emery
    Clark Emery

  6. #26
    Senior Member cpmm665's Avatar
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    Compass! Weather Report!

    The only thing this thread reminds you of is our first time!
    Cindy Von Sutphen

    Dai Suki Desu MH
    Reed Lanes Ladies Love a Rockstar CGC
    LPK's If I Can Call You Betty (da behbeh gurl)

  7. #27
    Senior Member goldeneye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpmm665 View Post
    Compass! Weather Report!

    The only thing this thread reminds you of is our first time!
    I am quite sure we have never had a first time.
    Clark Emery

  8. #28
    Senior Member John Montenieri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldeneye View Post
    I cant believe it took three pages for anybody to mention these missing factors. How did yall come up with the setups you drew without knowing the answers to these questions?

    I judged a test once where my co judge showed up with the setup he wanted to run scribbled on a napkin. He had never seen the grounds we had to work with and had no weather information at all. But he knew the setup he wanted already. This thread reminds me a bit of that assignment.

    I couldnt even begin to think of a setup without knowing the answers to Marks questions.

    Clark Emery
    There have been many threads with similar discussions on setup with a just picture. Some assumptions are made and yes you can't know everything unless you have boots on the ground. That doesn't mean you can't come up with ideas for concepts and incorporate them into your training.

    1- Having cover changes for a dog to negotiate is good training
    2- Angle entry and exits with water features is good training

    I've had plenty of judging assignments that force you to use an inferior piece of land or water due to constraints of a stake, club restrictions or conflicts with multiple stakes running on the same day. This is a good exercise to visualize how you might want to use the land or setup. Nothing is in stone, this is merely an exercise. The idea is to give folks with access to this property other thoughts. Can't see the trees through the forest concept. Are you suggesting that everyone who offered ideas on this picture for setups is like your co-judge with preconceived notions? This isn't an all age stake, AKC santioned event of any kind. Merely suggestions. If you feel you can't do a setup without more info, why comment at all? If you don't agree, so be it.
    An armed man is a citizen
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  9. #29
    Senior Member goldeneye's Avatar
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    Many of those other threads have incorporated factors such as wind direction and speed in the responses or the OP. At least the more helpful ones have. I have not disagreed with anything anyone has posted.

    I feel that far too many humans see things such as environmental conditions as an afterthought. Canines do not see it this way. Things like wind direction and speed, lighting, backgrounds etc can be of paramount importance on any given mark or blind. I believe that obvious factors (to us) such as angled entries and cover changes can sometimes be the trees that prevent trainers from seeing the forest from the dogs perspective. Things such as wind speed and direction (just as obvious to our dogs) would be so easy to include in these kind of hypothetical training "exercises" but they are frequently left out. They are also too often left out of trainers thinking when attempting to train, or test, a dog.

    My point is that these factors are far more important than a lot of trainers realize and considering them when designing, setting up and executing setups is too often neglected. I do not feel I can, or should, do a productive set up without this information and I comment to only to help others realize how important it really is. Routinely incorporating this information into our suggested setups can help people learn to train more effectively by training them to consider these things in their training.

    So my question to you is that if you feel you can design a quality setup with no regard to wind direction and speed, lighting, background and other environment factors, why comment at all? If you dont agree, so be it.

    Wind is not an afterthought regards,

    Clark Emery
    Last edited by goldeneye; 04-21-2013 at 01:18 AM.
    Clark Emery

  10. #30
    Senior Member John Montenieri's Avatar
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    Those factors are important. Problem is you do your best to set up a test and what do you do if the wind shifts? How do you deal with tree lines and shadows early morning vs late afternoon? What happens when the weather changes during your setup? Do you scrap the test if half the field has run or while your training? What do you do to make birds visible in flat light? How do you protect bird falls in cross wind situations? What happens when it starts raining and makes 1 gunner hard to see? Are you using pheasants or ducks or a mixed bag? You will get better results in minimal cover with hen pheasants. I don't disagree with your comment about wind/weather. It is an important factor, however visualizing marks on a property doesn't preclude you from looking at different things. You could get there and everything you said is in play, or not. You can't control mother nature so how do you deal with it when it spits in your face and it will. If you judge long enough or train often you'll have to deal with it. I want to know what you do if the wind changes on you and puts your test at a disadvantage.

    This person asked for some suggestions. Some folks offered them up and we (I) made basic assumptions. I don't make any assumptions when I'm judging/training until I get to the grounds, see the weather report and talk to my co-judge. I don't have any particular setups in mind until I get to the grounds and see what the terrain is like. You could have set the scenario by offer up details such as, if the wind is right to left.. etc. Since you made this point, here you go, the ball is in your court.

    Wind, 10mph, is from top left corner of picture to bottom right
    Sun come's up from top of picture to bottom, but it's cloudy
    the mowed area is like a putting green
    Trees have leafed out and are in full foliage
    cover in the back area (to the right) is knee high
    at least 1 station is using hen pheasants

    for this exercise let's assume the roads will not be an issue.
    assume you can shoot a flyer
    Lets also assume every side of the property is accessible.

    Offer your setup with your criteria answered. Explain your bird placement and what you'd expect to see.

    John
    An armed man is a citizen
    An unarmed man is a subject

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