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Thread: trial wise /training with out an e collar

  1. #21
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Agreed Evan. I'll add - put one on and don't use it - apply another form of correction.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I used to occasionally take the collar off in training, but it seemed like every time I did, some unforeseen (more experienced trainers would have foreseen it), situation developed where my dog ended up getting away with murder because I had no way to correct him. This just worked toward making him more collar wise. After that I listened to Lardy and train 100% with a collar on, I might use a whip stick in dealing with sit or other line manners, but the collar is still on. The theory is that to build good habits by holding high standards on a 100% consistent basis in training, will carry over into good habits in trials. That's why they are called habits, good and bad behavior is something a dog does without thinking.

    The one remaining component is that when running trials or hunt test, you need to approach the line with a long term view, have that high standard in mind and be committed to picking up your dog with a vocal correction if he cheats that standard. It will cost you an entry fee, travel and food expenses, but will pay off in the long run.

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  3. #23
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    John - Let me ask you (innocently) if your dog cheats a bank or something when you're hunting - do you stand up and make collar corrections in pursuit of keeping the dog honest? Do you take the dog back to the point of infraction to do it right?
    No, I hold very low standards when I'm hunting. I see what you're thinking (see below edit), but I learned a long time ago that dogs are situational thinkers, they don't seem to correlate hunting with trialing. I usually start the season hunting with a collar on and expect to give a pretty big correction when my dog breaks on that first bird as I know he will. That one correction usually does the job and they don't break after that. Other than breaking, I correct for cast refusals on a blind, but that's about it. Mid and Late season hunting is cold up here, I prefer my dog to run down the river shore and square into the bird rather than take a long cold angle swim to the bird. It's a good and lucky thing that these bad habits don't carry over into field trials and it's training, it would be a big hassle for the dogs and I if I had to hold those same high standards all season.

    Here's proof it works, I hunted both dogs with loose standards all last season, from October 1st to the beginning of January. Then as the days got longer in January I started training on cold frozen ground with a buddy in mid-January, up to three or four times a week into March. I ran two back to back trials at the end of March and beginning of April. That was the first liquid water my dogs had seen since hunting season and the first disciplined water blind they would run since late September, both of my dogs had good line manners and ran wonderful water blinds. Alex was one of seven dogs to pass a very hard amateur water blind on a cold windy morning, eight very nice dogs picked up on that water blind.

    When I train for a trial we attempt to simulate as much as possible the trial. We always use holding blinds and mats or lines, we have bird racks on line, chairs with a couple guys sitting that is similar to the judge and marshall. Obviously dogs quickly pick of on the difference between a real trial with many more trucks/dogs present. I know what you are thinking, if dogs are situational, recognize the difference between real hunting and trialing and act accordingly, and despite our best efforts to simulate the trial experience in training, dogs still recognize the real trial atmosphere, why would the good habits carry over in one situation and not the other? All I can say is if you do pick your dog up the first time it cheats a bank in a trial, that does seems to carry over, and for whatever reason it seems to work. That's just my experience that has worked well for me with six different dogs over the last twenty years.

    (edit) I added this part after I thought about it a bit.
    Last edited by John Robinson; 04-19-2013 at 09:58 AM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I like Georges list of comments. If I had trained with George, I wouldn't have been caught so flat footed those few times I took the collar off. I am not arguing against George and Even, I just haven't learned their tricks for correcting at long distance without the collar on. It has been my experience that most trial-wise issues are manifested on line, creeping, breaking, etc, so it would seem like a trainer would have multiple options there.

    John

  5. #25
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Boy View Post
    I would susspect the best marking dogs in the world were never seen because thier trainers had low standards and the dog never made it to the line.
    Sad but true. It is at least theorhetically true that we've never been able to see some of the most talented dogs ever because of this very thing.

    John, one of the things I recall Rex saying is that he would periodically "run the truck" with dummy collars (clients usually handling) to get a read of where they really were in their training, and to cause the trainers to think more outside the box in holding standards high. One of the ways to get sent back to the truck without running a dog was to arrive on line without a heeling stick.

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  6. #26
    Senior Member Brokengunz's Avatar
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    There is a lot of good comments here. Take a high drive, high retrieving desire, very birdy dog and put a bird in their face and you get a different level of bahavior than if you are taking out the garbage. Most all dogs, when you put the collar on show a different level (lower) of behavior than without. The difference is at a trial your only option is to pick the dog up if it breaks your standard. when training without the collar you still have your voice, you can call the dog back in, or use other methods to let the dog know its not doing the right thing. I am talking about a dog that is 4.5 years old not a puppy. The dogs we are breeding these days are very smart. I understand that training is a repetative conditioning procedure. Also that once a dog know that, at the trial it doesn't have a collar on, and in training it has a collar and there is a behavior difference. Are we not conditioning the dog to actually behave that way through repetition. My thinking is by removing the collar in a situation where the dog can be corrected some other way, loud voice or something would be beneficial to training.

  7. #27
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    "...high retrieving desire, very birdy..."

    Your dog doesn't even hear you. Your loud voice becomes irrelevant background noise.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    There is a lot of good comments here. Take a high drive, high retrieving desire, very birdy dog and put a bird in their face and you get a different level of bahavior than if you are taking out the garbage. Most all dogs, when you put the collar on show a different level (lower) of behavior than without. The difference is at a trial your only option is to pick the dog up if it breaks your standard. when training without the collar you still have your voice, you can call the dog back in, or use other methods to let the dog know its not doing the right thing. I am talking about a dog that is 4.5 years old not a puppy. The dogs we are breeding these days are very smart. I understand that training is a repetative conditioning procedure. Also that once a dog know that, at the trial it doesn't have a collar on, and in training it has a collar and there is a behavior difference. Are we not conditioning the dog to actually behave that way through repetition. My thinking is by removing the collar in a situation where the dog can be corrected some other way, loud voice or something would be beneficial to training.
    I think if you use the collar correctly you won't get that behavior difference that you are suggesting. If you are not going to use the collar at all, you still have to maintain high standards just as if you had the collar on. There should be no different expectations of the dog. They still have to perform. You as a trainer have to use other tools even if you had a collar on. The collar or attrition are examples of two tools in your arsenal.
    I like George's line of thinking. Simplify. But be consistent, enforce commands and keep your standards high. IMHO
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    There is a lot of good comments here. Take a high drive, high retrieving desire, very birdy dog and put a bird in their face and you get a different level of bahavior than if you are taking out the garbage. Most all dogs, when you put the collar on show a different level (lower) of behavior than without. The difference is at a trial your only option is to pick the dog up if it breaks your standard. when training without the collar you still have your voice, you can call the dog back in, or use other methods to let the dog know its not doing the right thing. I am talking about a dog that is 4.5 years old not a puppy. The dogs we are breeding these days are very smart. I understand that training is a repetative conditioning procedure. Also that once a dog know that, at the trial it doesn't have a collar on, and in training it has a collar and there is a behavior difference. Are we not conditioning the dog to actually behave that way through repetition. My thinking is by removing the collar in a situation where the dog can be corrected some other way, loud voice or something would be beneficial to training.
    The dog needs to wear the collar at all times in training, or the dog will become more collar wise. But that doesn't mean the collar has to be used for every correction. After basic OB is done I rarely ever nick or shock a dog for not walking tight to at heel. I pull my hat and whack them with it in place of the heeling stick. So you don't need to use the collar for every infraction but the dog does need to wear it for the times when the dog it at distance and you can't get your point across any other way.
    But I go back to the fact that the dog only will be as good as the level of training he is given, and that needs to be at a high standard. I hate when a handle says the dog screwed them. The dog isn't that smart to set out and screw the handler over.
    Dogs do what we train them to do and what we expect them to do. Dogs main goal in life is to please us.
    So I find it hard to believe the collar in or out of trainning has anything to do with the dog jacking you around at a trial.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Seems simple to me. All agree dogs are situational learners. Create a situation where you don't use a collar (test or trial) and every other situation where you do (training at home, training days) and your dog will likely learn the situation.
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