The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: trial wise /training with out an e collar

  1. #11
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Castalia Ohio
    Posts
    275

    Default

    There's a lot of good advise here we can't to help correct the issue if we don't know what the dog did at the trial. So a little more history would be helpful. Like did the dog break at the line, did he blow off casts or whistles on the blind.
    Tell what happened and I think the people on hear can point you into the right direction.
    Cold Creek Gundogs
    The more I'm on the internet the more I love my dogs.

  2. #12
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    So just wearing a collar in training makes a dog test wise? By the way they're all test wise. They all know when they are training or testing. They don't need a collar to learn that.
    Gee thanks. Of course they know the environment - just like they know training versus test versus a day afield actually hunting.

    The point is - if you can't or don't train or hunt without a collar, and validate/verify performance and cooperation by means of compliance and/or correction without one - your test days will become far more frightening.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  3. #13
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bigfork, Montana
    Posts
    3,207

    Default

    I used to occasionally take the collar off in training, but it seemed like every time I did, some unforeseen (more experienced trainers would have foreseen it), situation developed where my dog ended up getting away with murder because I had no way to correct him. This just worked toward making him more collar wise. After that I listened to Lardy and train 100% with a collar on, I might use a whip stick in dealing with sit or other line manners, but the collar is still on. The theory is that to build good habits by holding high standards on a 100% consistent basis in training, will carry over into good habits in trials. That's why they are called habits, good and bad behavior is something a dog does without thinking.

    The one remaining component is that when running trials or hunt test, you need to approach the line with a long term view, have that high standard in mind and be committed to picking up your dog with a vocal correction if he cheats that standard. It will cost you an entry fee, travel and food expenses, but will pay off in the long run.

    John

  4. #14
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I used to occasionally take the collar off in training, but it seemed like every time I did, some unforeseen (more experienced trainers would have foreseen it), situation developed where my dog ended up getting away with murder because I had no way to correct him. This just worked toward making him more collar wise. After that I listened to Lardy and train 100% with a collar on, I might use a whip stick in dealing with sit or other line manners, but the collar is still on. The theory is that to build good habits by holding high standards on a 100% consistent basis in training, will carry over into good habits in trials. That's why they are called habits, good and bad behavior is something a dog does without thinking.


    The one remaining component is that when running trials or hunt test, you need to approach the line with a long term view, have that high standard in mind and be committed to picking up your dog with a vocal correction if he cheats that standard. It will cost you an entry fee, travel and food expenses, but will pay off in the long run.

    John
    John - Let me ask you (innocently) if your dog cheats a bank or something when you're hunting - do you stand up and make collar corrections in pursuit of keeping the dog honest? Do you take the dog back to the point of infraction to do it right?
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  5. #15
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,317

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    So just wearing a collar in training makes a dog test wise? By the way they're all test wise. They all know when they are training or testing. They don't need a collar to learn that.
    My take on this:
    1) You are definitely right
    2) Never give a command that you cannot/will not enforce (NEVER)
    3) Set up a training situation but without an ecollar. Develop a system of non collar corrections that can be used anywhere in the field without the ecollar. This may require careful planning and hidden helpers. Those of us who have trained Amish style, especially from long ago, have a lot in our bag of tricks. Teach the dog that a correction is always possible.
    4) Take your time with this. Impatience is the problem that I see in 90% of people I have trained with (mostly newcomer amateurs).
    5) Start this training close.


    I learned the above lessons the best way---the hard way. Remember, item 2 above is the best piece of advice IMHO.
    Last edited by gdgnyc; 04-19-2013 at 09:06 AM.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  6. #16
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    So just wearing a collar in training makes a dog test wise? By the way they're all test wise. They all know when they are training or testing. They don't need a collar to learn that.
    You may have heard the phrase, "Dogs are situational learners"? That is universally true. Because of that, they all become wise to situations, and it takes very little time. In each situation are what behavior psychologists call "triggers"; sights, smells, sounds, and/or expreiences that convey to a dog what that situation is...or is not. They come to expect certain things in familiar situations, and behave accordingly.

    It's not unusual at all for dogs to be 'test-wise', 'trial-wise', or wise to the training environment (situation), and to behave in differing ways depending on which situation they are in. But we are not helpless to affect a stable performance, unless we remain ignorant of these facts, and of what actions to take to manage them. All HNTSH pointed out (in a simplified way) is that this dog was driven toward his situation-wise problematic state through inconsisten collar use. Only weil-reasoned consistency in its use will stabilize the dog. It's pretty simple.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  7. #17
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Castalia Ohio
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Well while you guys debate the collar use in training. I believe, it's more than that, weather to wear a collar in training or not. It's the level of standard in training. If you have a high standards in training it transfers to the trial or test. If you have a poor standard in training it'll show. I've never seen the perfect dog in trainig or at a trial. Or maybe as my daugther puts it no person or dog will live up to my level of expectation. You need to train at a level higher than expected at the trial.
    Cold Creek Gundogs
    The more I'm on the internet the more I love my dogs.

  8. #18
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    My take on this:
    1) You are definitely right
    2) Never give a command that you cannot/will not enforce (NEVER)
    3) Set up a training situation but without an ecollar. Develop a system of non collar corrections that can be used anywhere in the field without the ecollar. This may require careful planning and hidden helpers. Those of us who have trained Amish style, especially from long ago, have a lot in our bag of tricks. Teach the dog that a correction is always possible.
    4) Take your time with this. Impatience is the problem that I see in 90% of people I have trained with (mostly newcomer amateurs).
    5) Start this training close.


    I learned the above lessons the best way---the hard way. Remember, item 2 above is the best piece of advice IMHO.
    Spot on. I'd add number #3 would support #2 in evolution of training. I love collars but they too often become magic buttons. You can learn more about your dog making other corrections or at least expand your influence.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  9. #19
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Use one. Don't use one. Make a choice.

    If you use one, don't put it on the dog sometimes in training, and then not others and expect him not to become collar-wise. There is no rule that says just because he has one on that you have to push a button. You can use other corrective tools, even with the collar on. These are simple principles.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  10. #20
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Castalia Ohio
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Use one. Don't use one. Make a choice.

    If you use one, don't put it on the dog sometimes in training, and then not others and expect him not to become collar-wise. There is no rule that says just because he has one on that you have to push a button. You can use other corrective tools, even with the collar on. These are simple principles.

    Evan
    You are exactly correct. But you have to keep your standards high at all times. High standards are what make a great dog. I would susspect the best marking dogs in the world were never seen because thier trainers had low standards and the dog never made it to the line.
    Cold Creek Gundogs
    The more I'm on the internet the more I love my dogs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •