The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 53

Thread: Force to Pile Questions

  1. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    I think you may have skipped some valuable steps: walking ff, stick fetch, simple casting, cc, ecollar fetch.
    Which one of these have you done before starting FTP? You indicated that you are following Lardy's flow chart but do you have the dvds?

    I guess everyone has opinions but Mike Lardy still advocates stick fetch and I still use it also.
    I have done walking FF, simple casting, cc, and E-collar fetch. I am going to do a FF refresher aiming for faster responses today. tommorrow I will do E-collar fetch with the bumper in my hand then bring it down to the ground. once that looks good ill do FTP up real close and start extending the pile. Does this look like a good plan or would you do otherwise?

  2. #12
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,467

    Default

    Posts 8 and 9 are full of red flags.

    The dog needs to fetch in response to the pressure.
    Not in spite of the pressure.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Burlington, Vermont
    Posts
    11,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    I think you may have skipped some valuable steps: .

    as do I Wayne,
    one or two red flags popped up in the above type.
    but say we are wrong and nothin' is skipped. a fun
    "trick" ( 'member the old saying of how it is so easy to trick a retriever?)
    trick is for a dog that loves, loves, loves fun bumpers and will drive for them hard
    is to put down a half dozen pile with the dog. walk away to a spot far back that
    you can still throw a bumper to the pile. Front sit dog and thow a "fun bumper"
    how ever you do it onto the pile and call out "Back" in a clear loud voice.
    front finnish sit the dog take the bumper and do it again. Do it for a hole bunch
    and then go for a walk. Do a few sessions of fun bumpers from front sit to back pile.
    Then one session after two or three tosses slip in a arm motion and a loud back but no
    toss!!!! Like the goof ball teenagers with the fake tennis ball toss to screw with a dog, you know?
    Now pup has seen that back pile and those half dozen bumpers dozens of times now. He is still having fun!
    He will spin right round and run to that pile like those dozen other fun bumpers he has did. Throw a real toss
    next. Ease in more fake throws. It is easy to trick a retriever to do something it aint doing, by making a fun game out of it.

    Of course, that is only if Wayne and I are wrong. I personaly knew a couple hard headed Chessies who hated drill work but loved to play. Just gotta get inside the head sometimes.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  4. #14
    Senior Member blackasmollases's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Union mills In.
    Posts
    262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    I think you may have skipped some valuable steps: walking ff, stick fetch, simple casting, cc, ecollar fetch.
    Which one of these have you done before starting FTP? You indicated that you are following Lardy's flow chart but do you have the dvds?

    I guess everyone has opinions but Mike Lardy still

    advocates stick fetch and I still use it also.
    Listen to Wayne. Swallow your pride and listen.
    Black as mollases, call name Strap

    Sire: Fc Afc Land ahoy "PIRATE"

    Dam: Ten bears little bit "BUTTON"

  5. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Posts 8 and 9 are full of red flags.

    The dog needs to fetch in response to the pressure.
    Not in spite of the pressure.
    Im afraid I don't quite understand, he would retrieve in response to pressure but also without pressure. I guess what you're saying is make him grab the FF dowel because of the pressure rather than him grabbing it regardless of what i'm doing? But the problem there is he never refuses so I cant make him retrieve in response to pressure. He is going to retrieve no matter what I do, trust me I know how he works.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ft. Worth, TX
    Posts
    4,222

    Default

    I would be interested in seeing a video. Fast and slow tend to be subjective. Fast is not necessarily the goal. Compulsion to get to the pile is the response. In one of Lardy's dvd demos he says "not all dogs will be as fast as XXX".

    Some dogs hate these drills and are slow. Rowdy (by Pirate) was one of them. But once we got thru the short drill yardwork phase and into the field (pattern blinds) his attitude improved significantly and the speed increased also.
    Then when we came back to the yard for followup drills (no-no and eight hand casting) his speed was still there.
    But I don't necessarily want a fast dog on blinds.

    I like a dog that runs 1/2-2/3 speed on blinds as he does on marks. I have had the fast dogs and I can't think in front of them.

    I think your plan is as good as any but mix in some fun stuff as Ken has suggested. Again a video would help a lot.


    Edit: I think that maybe you didn't do walking fetch long enough. Just about every dog will after a couple of days of this start giving refusals. They start saying this isn't fun anymore. And that is when you force the issue and work through it. Then you will know that it took.

    Did you try restraining him while doing walking ff?

    Look at the video of Hank (by Pirate) doing walking ff.
    Last edited by Wayne Nutt; 04-21-2013 at 06:48 PM.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  7. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    as do I Wayne,
    one or two red flags popped up in the above type.
    but say we are wrong and nothin' is skipped. a fun
    "trick" ( 'member the old saying of how it is so easy to trick a retriever?)
    trick is for a dog that loves, loves, loves fun bumpers and will drive for them hard
    is to put down a half dozen pile with the dog. walk away to a spot far back that
    you can still throw a bumper to the pile. Front sit dog and thow a "fun bumper"
    how ever you do it onto the pile and call out "Back" in a clear loud voice.
    front finnish sit the dog take the bumper and do it again. Do it for a hole bunch
    and then go for a walk. Do a few sessions of fun bumpers from front sit to back pile.
    Then one session after two or three tosses slip in a arm motion and a loud back but no
    toss!!!! Like the goof ball teenagers with the fake tennis ball toss to screw with a dog, you know?
    Now pup has seen that back pile and those half dozen bumpers dozens of times now. He is still having fun!
    He will spin right round and run to that pile like those dozen other fun bumpers he has did. Throw a real toss
    next. Ease in more fake throws. It is easy to trick a retriever to do something it aint doing, by making a fun game out of it.

    Of course, that is only if Wayne and I are wrong. I personaly knew a couple hard headed Chessies who hated drill work but loved to play. Just gotta get inside the head sometimes.
    I really like what youre getting at there I will have to try this out!!! I always find if I can boost a dogs confidence then everyone wins. I want to let everyone know how helpfull their info has been. I admire Wayne's experience and knowledge along with many others who have chimed in. I have trained 6 dogs to hunt ducks with me but only recently (last 6 months) have I gotten into the whole Lardy/trained retriever game. Every bit of information I can get really helps me wrap my head around the full concept of where we are heading as a team.

  8. #18
    Junior Member IMABIRDHUNTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    South Bank of the Red River-TEXAS
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Some where in your ff you should have restrained pup for at least a slow 5 count so pup learns the only way to stop the pressure is get the force object in his mouth. It sounds like you let pup "beat the drill" instead of being conditioned to retrieve IMO.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Burlington, Vermont
    Posts
    11,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Labhunter907 View Post
    ..... But the problem there is he never refuses so I cant make him retrieve in response to pressure. ......
    old timers used "odd objects" for the end of ff. and old coke bottle was popular. So was a hammer.
    all my dogs carry tools in the woods as I hug trees.
    If you drop your keys while holding a case of bier. What will Rover do if you say fetch?
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  10. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    old timers used "odd objects" for the end of ff. and old coke bottle was popular. So was a hammer.
    all my dogs carry tools in the woods as I hug trees.
    If you drop your keys while holding a case of bier. What will Rover do if you say fetch?
    He will go right for those keys. I can have him hold coke cans, shovel handles, nalgene bottles, and on multiple occasions when at our cabin gathering firewood i will tell him to fetch a pile of fire wood and he will grab one and follow me inside (although grabbing branches or trees would be undesirable when hunting)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •