The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 53

Thread: Force to Pile Questions

  1. #21
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Labhunter907 View Post
    ...I guess what you're saying is make him grab the FF dowel because of the pressure rather than him grabbing it regardless of what i'm doing?
    No.

    Think about it.
    What is the difference between fetching in spite of, and in response to?

    And Force Fetch isn't about fetching whats.
    It's about fetching whens.

    If the dog understands what the pressure means, it will respond to it by fetching WHEN it doesn't want to fetch.
    Demanding that a dog respond to the pressure by fetching someTHING that it doesn't know it's supposed to fetch, is ridiculous.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 04-21-2013 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,520

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IMABIRDHUNTER View Post
    Some where in your ff you should have restrained pup for at least a slow 5 count so pup learns the only way to stop the pressure is get the force object in his mouth. It sounds like you let pup "beat the drill" instead of being conditioned to retrieve IMO.
    This is what you didn't do, Labhunter.

    You keep the pressure on the ear while at the same time holding back on the collar ... preventing him from moving forward. Provide just enough resistance so that he can overcome it with some degree of effort. Then let him have it and relax the pressure on the ear.

    Do this ... increasing the amount of resistance you provide over time ... until he is pulling very hard against your resistance. You want to make him feel like you are holding him back and he is overcoming your resistance. When you progress to collar fetch, it is the same thing ... restrain him while applying low stimulation and make him think he is overcoming your restraint.

    Later, when you are nearing the end of walking fetch, you do the same thing ... you restrain him with the leash while stimulating him with the collar.

    This is a bit of an art. Don't be overzealous in your restraint at first. He may be confused and you don't want him to think you are telling him "no". Just teach him to pull hard against you to get to the bumper.

    This part of the process is where he learns the pressure means go faster .... drive harder.
    JS
    Last edited by JS; 04-21-2013 at 08:19 PM.
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ...​ at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  3. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    No.

    Think about it.
    What is the difference between fetching in spite of, and in response to.

    And Force Fetch isn't about fetching whats.
    It's about fetching whens.

    If the dog understands what the pressure means, it will respond to it by fetching WHEN it doesn't want to fetch.
    Demanding that a dog respond to the pressure by fetching someTHING that it doesn't know it's supposed to fetch, is ridiculous.
    You have thoroughly confused me here. what is it you're getting at? What would be the training sequence, and how would that training session look?
    Is it sit the dog in front of you hold the FF dowel say fetch then begin an ear pinch once its mouth is on the dowel release pressure and praise vigorously and repeat this sequence until its response is faster then switch to E-collar with the dog sitting dowel in front say fetch start E-collar pressure until the dowel is i its mouth. then extend the dowel out in front with the dog in a front sit say fetch/back nick fetch/back? copterdoc I believe what youre saying to be correct I am only qurious how i should change my FF sequence.

  4. #24
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,540

    Default

    Originally Posted by IMABIRDHUNTER
    Some where in your ff you should have restrained pup for at least a slow 5 count so pup learns the only way to stop the pressure is get the force object in his mouth. It sounds like you let pup "beat the drill" instead of being conditioned to retrieve IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    This is what you didn't do, Labhunter.

    You keep the pressure on the ear while at the same time holding back on the collar ... preventing him from moving forward. Provide just enough resistance so that he can overcome it with some degree of effort. Then let him have it and relax the pressure on the ear.

    Do this ... increasing the amount of resistance you provide over time ... until he is pulling very hard against your resistance. You want to make him feel like you are holding him back and he is overcoming your resistance. When you progress to collar fetch, it is the same thing ... restrain him while applying low stimulation and make him think he is overcoming your restraint.

    Later, when you are nearing the end of walking fetch, you do the same thing ... you restrain him with the leash while stimulating him with the collar.

    This is a bit of an art. Don't be overzealous in your restraint at first. He may be confused and you don't want him to think you are telling him "no". Just teach him to pull hard against you to get to the bumper.

    This part of the process is where he learns the pressure means go faster .... drive harder.
    JS
    I agree 100%

  5. #25
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Winola, Pa
    Posts
    2,406

    Default

    Copterdoc has a way of being very vague and mysterious....blow it off and listen to JS which actually tells you what to do with out being cryptic..
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

  6. #26
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Labhunter907 View Post
    You have thoroughly confused me here. what is it you're getting at? What would be the training sequence, and how would that training session look?
    Is it sit the dog in front of you hold the FF dowel say fetch then begin an ear pinch once its mouth is on the dowel release pressure and praise vigorously and repeat this sequence until its response is faster then switch to E-collar with the dog sitting dowel in front say fetch start E-collar pressure until the dowel is i its mouth. then extend the dowel out in front with the dog in a front sit say fetch/back nick fetch/back? copterdoc I believe what youre saying to be correct I am only qurious how i should change my FF sequence.
    Nobody can possibly explain Force Fetch to you on the internet.

    It's interactive. You need somebody to show you.

  7. #27
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    2,520

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Nobody can possibly explain Force Fetch to you on the internet.

    It's interactive. You need somebody to show you.
    It's not rocket surgery! (LVL) And it CAN be explained.

    Just say what you mean instead of talking in circles.

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ...​ at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  8. #28
    Senior Member TollerLover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    142

    Default

    A friend of mine finishes off FF with the dog on a bungee cord, so they have to really fight the resistance to get to the bumper. I agree that it is tough to properly FF a dog that is so eager to retrieve. My first Toller flew through FF and I thought we were doing great, but that came back to bite me later. I am working with a Flat Coat right now with the same problem.
    Liz Macpherson
    Rowantide Tollers
    www.rowantide.com

    CH Kare's Ocean Tide CDX WC JH (1999-2009-RIP)
    HRCH UH CH Rowantide's Taylor Maid CDX SH, CDN/US WCX (2 MH passes!)
    HR CH Rowantide's Quikkr Pikkr Uppr CD JH, CDN/US WCX
    HR CH Rowantide's Remember Me CD WCX
    UH HRCH CH Rowantide's Celtic Cap WCX
    CH Rowantide's Quack Addict WC
    Rowantide's 1 More 4 the Road
    UH Trinity Just'Nuther Redhead

    Anyone can train a Lab......
    maybe even a Toller person....

  9. #29
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    This is what you didn't do, Labhunter.

    You keep the pressure on the ear while at the same time holding back on the collar ... preventing him from moving forward. Provide just enough resistance so that he can overcome it with some degree of effort. Then let him have it and relax the pressure on the ear.

    Do this ... increasing the amount of resistance you provide over time ... until he is pulling very hard against your resistance. You want to make him feel like you are holding him back and he is overcoming your resistance. When you progress to collar fetch, it is the same thing ... restrain him while applying low stimulation and make him think he is overcoming your restraint.

    Later, when you are nearing the end of walking fetch, you do the same thing ... you restrain him with the leash while stimulating him with the collar.

    This is a bit of an art. Don't be overzealous in your restraint at first. He may be confused and you don't want him to think you are telling him "no". Just teach him to pull hard against you to get to the bumper.

    This part of the process is where he learns the pressure means go faster .... drive harder.
    JS
    This makes total sense. Like I said I am in a training group and I have asked the pro trainer there how to FF a natural retriever and he just told me to follow the sequence of "fetch" ear pinch, release. I have never heard of adding resistance but it is ingenious. I see how that would really get him driving hard.

  10. #30
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    It's not rocket surgery! (LVL) And it CAN be explained.

    Just say what you mean instead of talking in circles.

    JS
    You can explain science. You can't explain art.

    Explain the Mona Lisa to me.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •