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Thread: FT setups versus HRC setups

  1. #41
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    OK Fine!!!

    How do you determine what that Line is??? How do you determine the corridor?
    Hold two fingers up/.. the "V fingers?

    Or hold the thumb and pinkie finger up??

    IF YOU WERE JUDGING TO THE STANDARD,, and not what you personally like to see,, how would you determine the corridor ??

    No corridor,, no line no predefined route right per rule...

    Gooser
    Gooser my standards are high in HRC. That corridor for the blind is narrow. The line is as straight as I can make it. And that is the way I and the other HRC fellows strive for when we train together. I guess that is why we rerun some of the blinds in training and they return straight. That may not be a judges standard but it is mine and how we were taught!
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  2. #42
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Gooser, if this is an argument about judging standards, I agree with you, judges should judge to the written standard and leave AKC or field trial standards out of it. However, as a contestant-handler, I would train to a higher standard just to be sure I'm covered in case I run under judges who might not hold to the rule as close as you do. I also like it when my dog runs a pleasing blind that removes all judgment from the judges. I know for a fact that the actual blinds I encounter when hunting are much easier than what we train on every day.

    John
    You guys missed my point.

    trying to answer the OP.

    i am not arguing the written standard of venues.

    i was stating that it not the set up or the blind that may create bad habits, but rather the mindset of handlers that have only been use to venues that are very lenient on judging that venues blinds.

    When that mindset goes to run a qual blind, and runs them like he May be accustomed to he is in for a rude awakening

    I believe guys that have only had exposure to HRC and witnessed only HRC runs blinds would be amazed at the difference in what is expected at the Qual level.

    That's all.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  3. #43
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    You guys missed my point.

    trying to answer the OP.

    i am not arguing the written standard of venues.

    i was stating that it not the set up or the blind that may create bad habits, but rather the mindset of handlers that have only been use to venues that are very lenient on judging that venues blinds.

    When that mindset goes to run a qual blind, and runs them like he May be accustomed to he is in for a rude awakening

    I believe guys that have only had exposure to HRC and witnessed only HRC runs blinds would be amazed at the difference in what is expected at the Qual level.

    That's all.
    Yes I was b/c Qual blind is run different than an HRC blind. I did go out of my way this past summer and watch the best Al Arthur - not for nothing! And I am still working on learning and teaching my dog. The two venues are great but there are differences! The earlier you start your dog to angle cast the better would be one thing I would do different in teaching my dog. IMHO
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA
    http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=83047
    HR Blackie 2 CGN, WCI
    Metras's Hashtag Mickey
    http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=83051



    "Knowing how important right timing is in accomplishing right actions"
    Uncle Ray

  4. #44
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Per the seminar


    The judge will not require the retriever to run predefined route or channel,,


    A predefined route or channel is define as a specific track or course the judge is requiring the retriever to run.








    Now ,,,, For the guy that has only ever experienced this mind set. And he has only ever trained that way. He and the dog are going to have to make some serious adjustments if they are to be successful Running A Qual blind.
    Have I explained myself better now?


    I am not arguing with anyone. Just stating what I believe may be issues that SOME PEOPLE MAY have from running HRC blinds, then running Quals.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  5. #45
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    A lesson to take away from this thread: Once your dog is running cold blinds with confidence in training-- Regardless of the venue of dog game, when running a blind-you challenge the line. To do anything else is lying to your dog and yourself.

  6. #46
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pals View Post
    A lesson to take away from this thread: Once your dog is running cold blinds with confidence in training-- Regardless of the venue of dog game, when running a blind-you challenge the line. To do anything else is lying to your dog and yourself.

    Yes! Absolutly,,, but,, I think for the average guy with maybe his first dog running in these games we do,, MANY dont really know what challanging the blind really means......

    Lets take the converse... Ted for example.. sorry Ted...HeKNOWS that his dog HAS to really run straight, attack all the factors, and navigate them well. If NOT,, he wont win... thats Teds goal,,, He has to train to a very high standard to win.....

    If Ted were to take one of his dogs and attend a HRC Finished test,, there is NO DOUBT in my mind,, there would NOT be a whistle blown... The work I have witnessed Teds dog perform,,, a 150 yrd HT blind would not be much of a tests for them.. At least the majority of them wouldnt be..
    ANNND,, I think Ted would be astonished at the how handlers run those blinds,, and what quality of work gets passed...

    Its the mindset of the handler! How that handler trains,, and what that dog of his is use to when asked to run a Blind!!!

    I mean think about some of the HT you guys have run, and think about some of the dogs that have passed... THINK ABOUT GOOSERS DOGS you may have watched.... There is NO COMPARISON to the dogs like Ted owns and trains...... NONE!!! absolutly NONE..

    I was amazed at what the Pro I get to train with calls Puppy Blinds........ I think MANY HRC HT'rs would wet themselves...

    Its comparing Apples to Oranges..
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  7. #47
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    If you look at my sig line....

    Bailey is a HRCH (hunting retriever champion) titled dog....
    I will HONESTLY say,, when she was at her peak running her best blinds in HRC,, I really doubt she would have been able to competently run one of thos Pros "Puppy Blinds" that I talked about above... And her Handler,, (me),, didnt really have a CLUE as to what "challenge the blind" means to guys like Ted...
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  8. #48
    Senior Member KNorman's Avatar
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    The judge will not require the retriever to run predefined route or channel,,


    A predefined route or channel is define as a specific track or course the judge is requiring the retriever to run.
    The reason this is in the rules/seminar is due to the old days when some HRC judges would declare a route and have handlers run "fence" blinds.

    The idea behind a fence blind is to send the dog and then have to handle off line around some obstacle such as a barbed wire fence in a field, channel or pond. In other words, you're handling the dog off and then back on to the line for some factor (usually due to safety).


    If a handler wants to try to convince me a sloppy blind that cheated every factor en-route is acceptable because it's not running a predefined route.....good luck. That's making excuses for not attacking the blind, which will (and should) get your sheet folded everytime.

  9. #49
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Yes! Absolutly,,, but,, I think for the average guy with maybe his first dog running in these games we do,, MANY dont really know what challanging the blind really means......

    Lets take the converse... Ted for example.. sorry Ted...HeKNOWS that his dog HAS to really run straight, attack all the factors, and navigate them well. If NOT,, he wont win... thats Teds goal,,, He has to train to a very high standard to win.....

    If Ted were to take one of his dogs and attend a HRC Finished test,, there is NO DOUBT in my mind,, there would NOT be a whistle blown... The work I have witnessed Teds dog perform,,, a 150 yrd HT blind would not be much of a tests for them.. At least the majority of them wouldnt be..
    ANNND,, I think Ted would be astonished at the how handlers run those blinds,, and what quality of work gets passed...

    Its the mindset of the handler! How that handler trains,, and what that dog of his is use to when asked to run a Blind!!!

    I mean think about some of the HT you guys have run, and think about some of the dogs that have passed... THINK ABOUT GOOSERS DOGS you may have watched.... There is NO COMPARISON to the dogs like Ted owns and trains...... NONE!!! absolutly NONE..

    I was amazed at what the Pro I get to train with calls Puppy Blinds........ I think MANY HRC HT'rs would wet themselves...

    Its comparing Apples to Oranges..
    Why didn't you say this in the beginning? We were arguing against you when we should have been agreeing whole heartedly with you.

    Regarding that HRC rule, Kevin Norman's point is a good one. I remember running an early NAHRA Intermediate with my first dog Kimo. I had been training with field trailers and Kimo ran pretty good blinds. We lined the water blind, it was pretty easy, a square entry into the water over the tip of an island about thirty yards out and another ten yards to the bird. Most in the gallery clapped but some seriously asked, "yeah, but can he handle?". I reported the story and comments back to my training group when I got home, and some old timer told me about how they used to make you handle your dog on a dog leg to avoid some obstacle just to insure the dog could handle as well as line.

    John

  10. #50
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I was at a Local Finished Hrc test..
    It was the Water series.. It was run on a river..
    There was a triple thrown. all marks across the river channel...

    One of the marks that were thrown, required the dog to swim across a piece of the river channel that had pretty sustantil current to it. The mark was placed in a back eddy,, and the mark would stay where placed,, but the dog would be swept downstream waypast where the mark fell.. Most dogs marked it well,, and really wasnt that big of deal,, but,,, the RETURN was!! You didnt want tha dog to return to you straight back the way he went out.. he would either get in the current and get stuck in place trying to swim against it,, or,, he would get swept farther downstream, where when he did get a chance to get back out,, the route back to you on the handlers side of the river was a real bitch for the dog to navigate... Most all handlers, after their dog picked up that mark,, whistle sat the dog,, and handled the dog from that spot , onto sand bar,, then back upstreamon dry sand,, to a point where they would then call them in,, and the current, once they got back in the river,, would drift them back to a point in front of the line..

    Ablind was run acroos that river current also, with the blinds palcement on the far bank.. Dogs drifted WAY "off line" on that blind!!
    You had to show Finished controll to get the dog back upstream on land to the bird, once the dog beached.. The controll was judged as to how well the dog took those casts and whistles.. You could NOT blow a whistle on the dogs way out to the blind while in current,, cause if the dog stopped,, and treadedwater,,, he would just be swept father downstream off line!! You just had to let the dog drift til he got out,, then Handel...
    Very common senario when you hunt rivers..

    Very common senario for the type of Hunting you see in region 13..

    How can you judge a "LINE"???
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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