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FT setups versus HRC setups

9K views 68 replies 17 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 ·
I am only referring to HRC the way they set up their blinds in relation to the marks is this good for a FT dog to run those setups once in awhile or are there serious differences that a FTer should be considering. And vice versa HRC dogs running FT setups. What is any are the pitfalls for the dogs? I am not referring to who is better or anything like that b/c both good venues in my mind.... just trying to see what could be some problems that might arise when cross training? What are your opinions?
 
#3 ·
M/L, I believe any FT dog could pick up an HRC blind under any circumstance but the opposite isn't always true. Don't see where there would be any problems pop up until the HRC dog got past 150 yds or serious factors like points,fingers,terrain.
 
#4 ·
"Distance erodes control" is a popular quote that comes to mind. I don't think HRC does a lot of blinds tight to gun stations with boxes of live fliers up wind at 250+ yards. I think that would probably be an issue for dogs who don't see blinds outside of gun stations at 80-100 yards. Then again, I'm usually wrong.
 
#5 ·
If I was just running hunt test I would train at least part time with field trailers on field trial set ups. My personal belief regarding blinds is, if you have a dog that is comfortable running Qualifying level blinds with good momentum and holding good initial lines for some distance against normal tight to gun or flyer diversions, that dog will be very good on hunt test blinds.

John
 
#6 · (Edited)
This is probably one of those time, where it depends on the dog. Still Skill-set are basically the same, I don't see how more exposure for dog and handler in any venue could be a hindrance. They need to be able to work both long and short. A FT short in-bird has a tendency to really mess the field up. Train and run for it all.

One of the few poison-bird blinds I've ever ran was a shoreline blind, under the arc of an in-your face floater bird at a HRC test 100-130 yd. All that blind required was you to prevent your dog from breaking, on a walk-up, as the bird was launched over your head BIG SPLASH, get pass the poison floater (~ 15-20yd) and get back to the blind without losing him in the tulley's. Tulley's that provided easy sneak back to the floater without you seeing. Also safe gun firing, and handling. I consider it a victory that the dog didn't pick up the poison bird. The judges didn't like the NO, Leave it, tulley sneak back; I SAID LEAVE IT, DON'T MAKE ME COME OUT THERE, but then Judges can just be so picky;). I mean come-on no-credit for the dog who absolutely marked that floater (10) for the line&pickup to that bird ;). I haven't seen many poison-bird blinds outside of FT's but it's a skill-set a Finished gun-dog does need. There are many times will you have to send a dog after a crippled sailor, over a dead floater. My other dog just paddled on pass it, the FT concept training helped her a lot.
 
#7 ·
I dont think that the SET UPS are a big deal,, but I know for a fact, that many HRC HT's run to many short blinds..

Another aspect is HRC's phylosiph of "making Progress" to the blind....

If a dog gets use to a handlers "Way" of running blinds,, with an attitude of just "Making Progress" instead of attacking specific Obstacles or "factors,, then BOTH Handler and DOG can get some bad habbits very easily.

One thing that comes to mind is the return... Many HRC'rs dont worry about it.. dont do anything in training to keep the dog honest on the return,, therefore SOME dogs may have a tendency to "Cheat" on the way out also...

So,, as I said,, I dont think the set up is thebig deal,, but rather the mindset of dog and Handler.. and what habits have been ingrained in both..

JMHO

Gooser
 
#10 ·
Gooser Curious about your statement re blinds. HRC challenges or supposed to challenge the blinds but without the distance of FT. HRC tries to run the blinds straight? or maybe I could say micromanage the blinds to keep on line??

I have always insisted on a straight return and know it is important even with marks.

I do have to ask what sort of blinds would FT people rerun? When we train for HRC they do rerun blinds and I can understand if these are cheating types of blinds but there are some I wonder about .
The reason for my question re FT setups versus HRC setup is the rerun of blinds in a field used numerous times for setups. We reran the blind twice after doing the setup. I sensed confusion in my dog as if he felt all the marks were not picked up especially if I asked him to rerun a blind again. Maybe that is just his inexperience at 3 1/2 yo. Maybe some others have thoughts on this. I don't want to do any injustice by rerunning when it may prove to be folly for the dog's training.
 
#8 ·
Remember also,, the SEMINAR taught in HRC along with the RULES dictate that the is "no line, predetermined route, or Channel to the blind"

What do you think a steady diet of that mindset is going to do for you or the dog, when you run that Qual blind?

Gooser
 
#9 · (Edited)
I'm no HRC expert although, I've participated enough to earn a seasoned title on my bitch but, never signed up for UKC and sent in the papers. I've run a few finished as well. Tests and training days are held close by and I watch them often to see what they are about.

What I see mostly is a lack of concepts on the marks. Marks seem to be placed in a manner to best utilize cover and open water spots that give us handlers a hunting "feel/look". The blinds allow very loose handling and have comparatively short distances. That's a big part of the game and I can appreciate it.

Most HRC tests I've seen do not have the varied concepts taught to field trial dogs. (hip pockets, in-lines etc) I've seen HRC tests triples done with what seems to be more focus on making the dog turn with the handler versus marking the birds or, difficulty in bird placement to test the dogs' ability more so than being taught to follow the barrel of a gun and not a signal in the field. (duck call/gun)

No right or wrong. Just that a finished level HRC dogs skills probably won't lend itself to success in the FT game without a lot of re-training. (this is only my observations from Finish tests I've watched and ran versus field trials I've watched and run)

It's easier to teach long and run short than to teach short then run long.
 
#14 ·
How do you keep a dog "ON LINE" if you are running a blind across a river with current that drifts the dog downstream?

Member these tests replicate a "Hunt"

A river dog is a very different animal compared to many...

Gooser
 
#20 ·
Never judged a HRC made two HRCH finished dogs. Great people, excellent hunters, march in place in this area anyway with cookie cutter tests, go bird long, two shorter birds, blind through the marks. Then there is the minute bird hits the ground dog can be sent, no immediate inspection of birds by judges, hang em up, carry away when your done talk to dog entire time, move dog around , ready, silent throws, shoot from the line, short distances, no flyers, etc, etc.
I have run AKC field trials, AKC Hunt tests, HRC hunt tests, titled dogs at highest level in all three venues. I have never trained except with field trial set-ups for all venues including wearing white coats. Oh yeah my dogs are all hunted. It's the same old, same old, different venues, different standards, different window-dressing, apples/oranges, different titles, train with what you feel comfortable in and have fun! It's all about the dogs.
 
#22 · (Edited)
You judge controll by does the dog sit when whistled?
Does he take the cast that he is given?

If the dog takes a poor initial line,, does the handeler correct it,, and Generally get theh dog back on track?

If the dog avoids cover ,, does the handler correct that, and get the dog back on track (generally) to the direction the blind is at???
If the dog goes around the cover,, but the handler gets the dog stopped quickly, and gives a cast that puts the dog in the direction (generally) of where the bird is,, and the dog takes that cast,, all is good...

ITS ABOUT JUDGES JUDGING,,, ANNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDD

IS THE DOG MAKING PROGRESS???

Is the dog taking the cast given????

Simple!!
 
#23 ·
Mary Lynn

I don't know what a HRC blind is. If you gave me more information, I could give you a better answer

​Ted
 
#25 ·
Ted,

In a HRC test there are only two "series" a land and a water series, at the finished level a short triple is shot with a blind, the blind is almost always run inside of the marks, under the ark, through the fall ect. Sometimes it's a hot blind.

I train for both and don't see a problem, I think it makes a well rounded dog, especialy if you hunt the dog..

In training even if it's a short 100 yard HRC blind that has factors, treat it like a FT blind and challenge it.
 
#26 ·
Of course.

But, I don't look at a Hunt Test, as a fake hunt. I look at it as a real test.

If there's a log on the line to the blind, that's part of the test.
If there's a corner of water, or a slice of cover, I consider those to be questions asked by the test.

If I just let the dog run around them, and then handle after the question has been "skipped", I would not expect any Judge to pass my dog.

Not because my dog failed to run a predefined route or channel.
But rather, because I just let my dog avoid the questions by not answering them.
 
#27 ·
MaryLynn we run and train HRC FT and CKC HT. Today we did white coat stuff an ABC drill and then an in line triple with a blind off the back of one of the guns. Tomorrow we will do HRC and CKC HT type set ups. The differnce with the blind is basically distance and the "stuff" you put into them. In field trials the line to the blind is tight and this is where I run into problems in HT tests. I expect the same standards on the blinds and will pick my dog up if I don't feel that she has given me the line or take the casts I want, at a hunt test. I then watch performances that are off line and with mutiple refusals get a ribbon. I just haven't wrapped my head around what I expect for a master blind and what the judges are willing to accept. We have our HRCH. The pro that taught me some of things I know always stress 'there is a beginning, middle and end to a blind and you better make sure you work on all three". He also would chew your ears off if he caught you rerunning a blind. Move the blind and use the same concept.
 
#30 ·
As a general rule, I think you train above where you compete. So, I would run longer, tighter, more complicated blinds than I would expect to see in my desired venue. Based on what Earl has told me, I would train on Qual setups - without any concern about its impact on HRC blinds
 
#36 ·
Gooser, if this is an argument about judging standards, I agree with you, judges should judge to the written standard and leave AKC or field trial standards out of it. However, as a contestant-handler, I would train to a higher standard just to be sure I'm covered in case I run under judges who might not hold to the rule as close as you do. I also like it when my dog runs a pleasing blind that removes all judgment from the judges. I know for a fact that the actual blinds I encounter when hunting are much easier than what we train on every day.

John
 
#42 ·
You guys missed my point.

trying to answer the OP.

i am not arguing the written standard of venues.

i was stating that it not the set up or the blind that may create bad habits, but rather the mindset of handlers that have only been use to venues that are very lenient on judging that venues blinds.

When that mindset goes to run a qual blind, and runs them like he May be accustomed to he is in for a rude awakening

I believe guys that have only had exposure to HRC and witnessed only HRC runs blinds would be amazed at the difference in what is expected at the Qual level.

That's all.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Who cares what the standard is you should be training at a higher level then you are training for whatever event you anticipate to run. Blinds are much like the game of golf, the less strokes you have on the straightest line to the green, through or over the hazards that are in your way gets the best score. Coversely the more overs you give are like slices or hooks the more you have to take to get back on course/fairway. Thus the higher score or poorer blind. In principal judges should set up blinds, where, if lined properly in principal will get you straight to the blind. It really doesn't matter if it's a 75 yard blind or a 375 yard blind. So if you stand there as a technocrat with book in hand looking for the minimal standard then you just marching place and never progress. Angle backs and half azz overs or weak handles are just that, wishing yourself to the blind. I call it Mississippi riverboat gambling.
 
#44 ·
Per the seminar


The judge will not require the retriever to run predefined route or channel,,


A predefined route or channel is define as a specific track or course the judge is requiring the retriever to run.








Now ,,,, For the guy that has only ever experienced this mind set. And he has only ever trained that way. He and the dog are going to have to make some serious adjustments if they are to be successful Running A Qual blind.
Have I explained myself better now?


I am not arguing with anyone. Just stating what I believe may be issues that SOME PEOPLE MAY have from running HRC blinds, then running Quals.
 
#59 ·
Per the seminar

The judge will not require the retriever to run predefined route or channel,,
.
I always find this the funniest quote; any judge worth his salt doesn't need to give you a predefined route for your dog to take, he just sets up a blind that if you don't go straight at it and stay on route you lose your dog, or have major issues, that you might never recover from. You get off-line you get in trouble, they also put in factors to tempt. your dog off-line, so the blind cannot be lined and you have to handle. A properly setup blind if you don't challenged the line or your pretty much out, unfortunately a lot of blinds are not properly setup ;).
 
#46 ·
Yes! Absolutly,,, but,, I think for the average guy with maybe his first dog running in these games we do,, MANY dont really know what challanging the blind really means......

Lets take the converse... Ted for example.. sorry Ted...HeKNOWS that his dog HAS to really run straight, attack all the factors, and navigate them well. If NOT,, he wont win... thats Teds goal,,, He has to train to a very high standard to win.....

If Ted were to take one of his dogs and attend a HRC Finished test,, there is NO DOUBT in my mind,, there would NOT be a whistle blown... The work I have witnessed Teds dog perform,,, a 150 yrd HT blind would not be much of a tests for them.. At least the majority of them wouldnt be..
ANNND,, I think Ted would be astonished at the how handlers run those blinds,, and what quality of work gets passed...

Its the mindset of the handler! How that handler trains,, and what that dog of his is use to when asked to run a Blind!!!

I mean think about some of the HT you guys have run, and think about some of the dogs that have passed... THINK ABOUT GOOSERS DOGS you may have watched.... There is NO COMPARISON to the dogs like Ted owns and trains...... NONE!!! absolutly NONE..

I was amazed at what the Pro I get to train with calls Puppy Blinds........ I think MANY HRC HT'rs would wet themselves...

Its comparing Apples to Oranges..
 
#47 ·
If you look at my sig line....

Bailey is a HRCH (hunting retriever champion) titled dog....
I will HONESTLY say,, when she was at her peak running her best blinds in HRC,, I really doubt she would have been able to competently run one of thos Pros "Puppy Blinds" that I talked about above... And her Handler,, (me),, didnt really have a CLUE as to what "challenge the blind" means to guys like Ted...
 
#48 ·
The judge will not require the retriever to run predefined route or channel,,


A predefined route or channel is define as a specific track or course the judge is requiring the retriever to run.
The reason this is in the rules/seminar is due to the old days when some HRC judges would declare a route and have handlers run "fence" blinds.

The idea behind a fence blind is to send the dog and then have to handle off line around some obstacle such as a barbed wire fence in a field, channel or pond. In other words, you're handling the dog off and then back on to the line for some factor (usually due to safety).


If a handler wants to try to convince me a sloppy blind that cheated every factor en-route is acceptable because it's not running a predefined route.....good luck. That's making excuses for not attacking the blind, which will (and should) get your sheet folded everytime.
 
#50 ·
I was at a Local Finished Hrc test..
It was the Water series.. It was run on a river..
There was a triple thrown. all marks across the river channel...

One of the marks that were thrown, required the dog to swim across a piece of the river channel that had pretty sustantil current to it. The mark was placed in a back eddy,, and the mark would stay where placed,, but the dog would be swept downstream waypast where the mark fell.. Most dogs marked it well,, and really wasnt that big of deal,, but,,, the RETURN was!! You didnt want tha dog to return to you straight back the way he went out.. he would either get in the current and get stuck in place trying to swim against it,, or,, he would get swept farther downstream, where when he did get a chance to get back out,, the route back to you on the handlers side of the river was a real bitch for the dog to navigate... Most all handlers, after their dog picked up that mark,, whistle sat the dog,, and handled the dog from that spot , onto sand bar,, then back upstreamon dry sand,, to a point where they would then call them in,, and the current, once they got back in the river,, would drift them back to a point in front of the line..

Ablind was run acroos that river current also, with the blinds palcement on the far bank.. Dogs drifted WAY "off line" on that blind!!
You had to show Finished controll to get the dog back upstream on land to the bird, once the dog beached.. The controll was judged as to how well the dog took those casts and whistles.. You could NOT blow a whistle on the dogs way out to the blind while in current,, cause if the dog stopped,, and treadedwater,,, he would just be swept father downstream off line!! You just had to let the dog drift til he got out,, then Handel...
Very common senario when you hunt rivers..

Very common senario for the type of Hunting you see in region 13..

How can you judge a "LINE"???
 
#52 ·
I was at a Local Finished Hrc test..
It was the Water series.. It was run on a river..
There was a triple thrown. all marks across the river channel...

One of the marks that were thrown, required the dog to swim across a piece of the river channel that had pretty sustantil current to it. The mark was placed in a back eddy,, and the mark would stay where placed,, but the dog would be swept downstream waypast where the mark fell.. Most dogs marked it well,, and really wasnt that big of deal,, but,,, the RETURN was!! You didnt want tha dog to return to you straight back the way he went out.. he would either get in the current and get stuck in place trying to swim against it,, or,, he would get swept farther downstream, where when he did get a chance to get back out,, the route back to you on the handlers side of the river was a real bitch for the dog to navigate... Most all handlers, after their dog picked up that mark,, whistle sat the dog,, and handled the dog from that spot , onto sand bar,, then back upstreamon dry sand,, to a point where they would then call them in,, and the current, once they got back in the river,, would drift them back to a point in front of the line..

Ablind was run acroos that river current also, with the blinds palcement on the far bank.. Dogs drifted WAY "off line" on that blind!!
You had to show Finished controll to get the dog back upstream on land to the bird, once the dog beached.. The controll was judged as to how well the dog took those casts and whistles.. You could NOT blow a whistle on the dogs way out to the blind while in current,, cause if the dog stopped,, and treadedwater,,, he would just be swept father downstream off line!! You just had to let the dog drift til he got out,, then Handel...
Very common senario when you hunt rivers..

Very common senario for the type of Hunting you see in region 13..

How can you judge a "LINE"???[/QUOTE]

Very realistic hunting scenario, much better than many of the contrived test I have run.

You ask your question about judging the line as if people are arguing with you that it is important to judge the line. Nobody on this thread is saying that. We are all saying, and you seemed to agree with your second to last post, that owning a well trained dog (you used Ted's FC-AFC as an example), training to a high standard would make passing HRC blinds easy. I imagine Ted's dog or any well trained dog would have no problem doing well on that blind, and that any judge worth his salt would know that holding a perfect line against that current was impossible.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Per the rule book..


Seasoned Hunt test

Purpose and Philosophy:
This hunt test is for seasoned Hunting retrievers and Handlers. It duplicates actual Hunting conditions throughout the local area.Judges will look for style, and natural ability and evidence the the seasoned hunting retriever exhibit’s a reasonable degree of control. These hunting tests have longer retrieves on both water and land than Started tests. The Seasoned Hunting Retriever must be steady on line and retrieve to hand. The Seasoned Hunting Retriever in these tests usually has a couple of seasons of hunting experience, and more training…


Finished Hunt tests.
Purpose and philosophy:
This Hunt test is for Finished hunting retrievers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the country. The successful completion of these tests leads to the qualification of a hunting retriever foir the title of Hunting retriever Champion. (Hrch). To pass these hunting tests the Finished Hunting Retriever must accomplish the tasks required with both style and accuracy. The Finished Hunting Retriever must respond promptly to to EITHER voice or whistle commands and remain steady and under control at all times. The Finished Hunting retriever should be a PLEASURE TO HUNT WITH under any conditions..
 
#54 ·
I do apologise for not being able to express my thoughts well..

I know what I want to say,, but after I type it , and post it,, well,, its like somebody else posted their thoughts:):)
 
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