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Thread: FT setups versus HRC setups

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Default FT setups versus HRC setups

    I am only referring to HRC the way they set up their blinds in relation to the marks is this good for a FT dog to run those setups once in awhile or are there serious differences that a FTer should be considering. And vice versa HRC dogs running FT setups. What is any are the pitfalls for the dogs? I am not referring to who is better or anything like that b/c both good venues in my mind.... just trying to see what could be some problems that might arise when cross training? What are your opinions?
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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I don't really know HRC, but I can't imagine getting a dog comfortable on any blind, short, long, tight to marks, under arcs, over old falls, ect. would hurt you in FTs.

    John

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    Senior Member Raymond Little's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    I am only referring to HRC the way they set up their blinds in relation to the marks is this good for a FT dog to run those setups once in awhile or are there serious differences that a FTer should be considering. And vice versa HRC dogs running FT setups. What is any are the pitfalls for the dogs? I am not referring to who is better or anything like that b/c both good venues in my mind.... just trying to see what could be some problems that might arise when cross training? What are your opinions?
    M/L, I believe any FT dog could pick up an HRC blind under any circumstance but the opposite isn't always true. Don't see where there would be any problems pop up until the HRC dog got past 150 yds or serious factors like points,fingers,terrain.
    "Character is doing the right thing when nobody is watching"....J.C. Watts

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    "Distance erodes control" is a popular quote that comes to mind. I don't think HRC does a lot of blinds tight to gun stations with boxes of live fliers up wind at 250+ yards. I think that would probably be an issue for dogs who don't see blinds outside of gun stations at 80-100 yards. Then again, I'm usually wrong.

  5. #5
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    If I was just running hunt test I would train at least part time with field trailers on field trial set ups. My personal belief regarding blinds is, if you have a dog that is comfortable running Qualifying level blinds with good momentum and holding good initial lines for some distance against normal tight to gun or flyer diversions, that dog will be very good on hunt test blinds.

    John

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    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    This is probably one of those time, where it depends on the dog. Still Skill-set are basically the same, I don't see how more exposure for dog and handler in any venue could be a hindrance. They need to be able to work both long and short. A FT short in-bird has a tendency to really mess the field up. Train and run for it all.

    One of the few poison-bird blinds I've ever ran was a shoreline blind, under the arc of an in-your face floater bird at a HRC test 100-130 yd. All that blind required was you to prevent your dog from breaking, on a walk-up, as the bird was launched over your head BIG SPLASH, get pass the poison floater (~ 15-20yd) and get back to the blind without losing him in the tulley's. Tulley's that provided easy sneak back to the floater without you seeing. Also safe gun firing, and handling. I consider it a victory that the dog didn't pick up the poison bird. The judges didn't like the NO, Leave it, tulley sneak back; I SAID LEAVE IT, DON'T MAKE ME COME OUT THERE, but then Judges can just be so picky. I mean come-on no-credit for the dog who absolutely marked that floater (10) for the line&pickup to that bird . I haven't seen many poison-bird blinds outside of FT's but it's a skill-set a Finished gun-dog does need. There are many times will you have to send a dog after a crippled sailor, over a dead floater. My other dog just paddled on pass it, the FT concept training helped her a lot.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 04-22-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I dont think that the SET UPS are a big deal,, but I know for a fact, that many HRC HT's run to many short blinds..

    Another aspect is HRC's phylosiph of "making Progress" to the blind....

    If a dog gets use to a handlers "Way" of running blinds,, with an attitude of just "Making Progress" instead of attacking specific Obstacles or "factors,, then BOTH Handler and DOG can get some bad habbits very easily.

    One thing that comes to mind is the return... Many HRC'rs dont worry about it.. dont do anything in training to keep the dog honest on the return,, therefore SOME dogs may have a tendency to "Cheat" on the way out also...

    So,, as I said,, I dont think the set up is thebig deal,, but rather the mindset of dog and Handler.. and what habits have been ingrained in both..

    JMHO

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    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Remember also,, the SEMINAR taught in HRC along with the RULES dictate that the is "no line, predetermined route, or Channel to the blind"

    What do you think a steady diet of that mindset is going to do for you or the dog, when you run that Qual blind?

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  9. #9
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    I'm no HRC expert although, I've participated enough to earn a seasoned title on my bitch but, never signed up for UKC and sent in the papers. I've run a few finished as well. Tests and training days are held close by and I watch them often to see what they are about.

    What I see mostly is a lack of concepts on the marks. Marks seem to be placed in a manner to best utilize cover and open water spots that give us handlers a hunting "feel/look". The blinds allow very loose handling and have comparatively short distances. That's a big part of the game and I can appreciate it.

    Most HRC tests I've seen do not have the varied concepts taught to field trial dogs. (hip pockets, in-lines etc) I've seen HRC tests triples done with what seems to be more focus on making the dog turn with the handler versus marking the birds or, difficulty in bird placement to test the dogs' ability more so than being taught to follow the barrel of a gun and not a signal in the field. (duck call/gun)

    No right or wrong. Just that a finished level HRC dogs skills probably won't lend itself to success in the FT game without a lot of re-training. (this is only my observations from Finish tests I've watched and ran versus field trials I've watched and run)

    It's easier to teach long and run short than to teach short then run long.
    Last edited by Paul "Happy" Gilmore; 04-22-2013 at 12:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I dont think that the SET UPS are a big deal,, but I know for a fact, that many HRC HT's run to many short blinds..

    Another aspect is HRC's phylosiph of "making Progress" to the blind....

    If a dog gets use to a handlers "Way" of running blinds,, with an attitude of just "Making Progress" instead of attacking specific Obstacles or "factors,, then BOTH Handler and DOG can get some bad habbits very easily.

    One thing that comes to mind is the return... Many HRC'rs dont worry about it.. dont do anything in training to keep the dog honest on the return,, therefore SOME dogs may have a tendency to "Cheat" on the way out also...

    So,, as I said,, I dont think the set up is thebig deal,, but rather the mindset of dog and Handler.. and what habits have been ingrained in both..

    JMHO

    Gooser
    Gooser Curious about your statement re blinds. HRC challenges or supposed to challenge the blinds but without the distance of FT. HRC tries to run the blinds straight? or maybe I could say micromanage the blinds to keep on line??

    I have always insisted on a straight return and know it is important even with marks.

    I do have to ask what sort of blinds would FT people rerun? When we train for HRC they do rerun blinds and I can understand if these are cheating types of blinds but there are some I wonder about .
    The reason for my question re FT setups versus HRC setup is the rerun of blinds in a field used numerous times for setups. We reran the blind twice after doing the setup. I sensed confusion in my dog as if he felt all the marks were not picked up especially if I asked him to rerun a blind again. Maybe that is just his inexperience at 3 1/2 yo. Maybe some others have thoughts on this. I don't want to do any injustice by rerunning when it may prove to be folly for the dog's training.
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA
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