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Thread: Hey, Franco.......

  1. #1
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Default Hey, Franco.......

    Which Paul is correct here??

    http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/...rone_flip_flop



    Ron Paul fans furious over Rand Paul's drone flip-flop
    Posted By John Hudson Tuesday, April 23, 2013 - 6:30 PM Share
    Ron Paul's vibrant fan base is in open rebellion today over Rand Paul's perceived reversal on domestic drone strikes. The Kentucky senator, whose famous 13-hour Senate floor filibuster did much to strengthen his ties with his father's hardcore following, told Fox Business Network on Tuesday he's OK with drone strikes on American citizens who, for instance, rob a liquor store.

    "I've never argued against any technology being used when you have an imminent threat, an active crime going on," Paul said. "If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and fifty dollars in cash. I don't care if a drone kills him or a policeman kills him."

    While it's true that Paul has always made an exception for "imminent threats" -- a 9/11-like moment -- the liquor store scenario struck many libertarians as a very low threshold for domestic drone strikes, especially considering Paul's Senate floor remarks, which if you recall, took a more anti-drone stance. Here's Paul on the Senate floor:

    I will speak as long as it takes, until the alarm is sounded from coast to coast that our Constitution is important, that your rights to trial by jury are precious, that no American should be killed by a drone on American soil without first being charged with a crime, without first being found to be guilty by a court.

    Now, a phalanx of Ron Paul and libertarian forums are revolting at the senator's perceived reversal.

    "I am stunned by Rand's statement," reads a blog post on the Daily Paul, one of the largest Ron Paul fan sites. "Unmanned killers in our skys O.K.??? Really? Get away from the Neocons and war mongers Rand, their arrogant and self-righteous air is rotting your brain."

    "How cute. The Politician emerges," wrote Paladin69, a user on RonPaulForums.com.

    "I disagree with shooting first and asking questions later," added forum administrator Josh Lowry.

    "The hell with arresting him I guess," wrote user The Gold Standard sarcastically. "Just fire a missile at him and move on to the next mundane."

    Reddit's brand of libertarian politics also repelled Paul's hypothetical. "A missile into the storefront seems like dramatically excessive force," wrote Reddit user Ohyeahthatsright. "Rand then seems to be supporting the militarization of police in their use of 'tools'. I thought he was against the 'police state.'"

    Other libertarian-leaning commentators, such as the American Conservative's Jordan Bloom, gave Paul more credit. "Paul wasn't as clear as he should have been," he writes. "It seems like he's trying to describe a firefight-type situation in which the cops are forced to neutralize a thief robbing a liquor store, but the way he actually describes it sounds far more innocuous."

    Today's flap is not the first he's had with his father's powerful online fan base, and it surely won't be the last. But by all accounts, his principled filibuster greatly rejuvenated his credibility with libertarians following his heretical endorsement of Mitt Romney during the presidential election. With today's remarks, he appears to have chipped away at that newly gained goodwill.

    Update: In response to the backlash, Sen. Paul released a statement about his views on domestic drone strikes. "Armed drones should not be used in normal crime situations," Paul said. When asked if he was retracting his hypothetical about an armed liquor store thief being killed by a drone, his spokeswoman Moira Bagley told Foreign Policy "not retracting." Here's the full statement:

    My comments last night left the mistaken impression that my position on drones had changed.

    Let me be clear: it has not. Armed drones should not be used in normal crime situations. They only may only be considered in extraordinary, lethal situations where there is an ongoing, imminent threat. I described that scenario previously during my Senate filibuster.

    Additionally, surveillance drones should only be used with warrants and specific targets.

    Fighting terrorism and capturing terrorists must be done while preserving our constitutional protections. This was demonstrated last week in Boston. As we all seek to prevent future tragedies, we must continue to bear this in mind.

    Last edited by road kill; 04-24-2013 at 02:12 PM.
    Stan b & Elvis

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    Goodness RK, don't you know that the one that stirs the "shtuff" has to lick the spoon. I am glad you know how to copy and post a link from drudge. You can also google Rands response where he clarifies after. Rand is not a Libertarian, so i can't hold him to that standard, but he does stand for liberty more than....wait for it....(building suspense for the buzz word)...the NEOCONS....who run the republican party.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    I would have to side with Ron over Rand. Though Rand and Justin Amash are the most Libertarian in Congress, Rand may be gravitating more toward the NeoCons & Teas(the two " big government " GOP political factions) side in an attempt to get thier support for his run at POTUS. All of which means Rand would be hard pressed to get the Libertarian support or nod when the GOP establishment rejects him for Rubio. I expect his father to reel him back in
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

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    I saved you the time, here is his response

    http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=779

    Sen. Paul Statement on Domestic Drone Use



    Apr 23, 2013




    WASHINGTON, D.C. - Sen. Rand Paul released the following statement this evening following erroneous reports of a change in his position on the use of domestic drones.



    "My comments last night left the mistaken impression that my position on drones had changed.

    "Let me be clear: it has not. Armed drones should not be used in normal crime situations. They may only be considered in extraordinary, lethal situations where there is an ongoing, imminent threat. I described that scenario previously during my Senate filibuster.

    "Additionally, surveillance drones should only be used with warrants and specific targets.

    "Fighting terrorism and capturing terrorists must be done while preserving our constitutional protections. This was demonstrated last week in Boston. As we all seek to prevent future tragedies, we must continue to bear this in mind."

  5. #5
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    I would have to side with Ron over Rand. Though Rand and Justin Amash are the most Libertarian in Congress, Rand may be gravitating more toward the NeoCons & Teas(the two " big government " GOP political factions) side in an attempt to get thier support for his run at POTUS. All of which means Rand would be hard pressed to get the Libertarian support or nod when the GOP establishment rejects him for Rubio. I expect his father to reel him back in
    Fair enough answer Franco!
    Stan b & Elvis

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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    I saved you the time, here is his response

    http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=779

    Sen. Paul Statement on Domestic Drone Use



    Apr 23, 2013




    WASHINGTON, D.C. - Sen. Rand Paul released the following statement this evening following erroneous reports of a change in his position on the use of domestic drones.



    "My comments last night left the mistaken impression that my position on drones had changed.

    "Let me be clear: it has not. Armed drones should not be used in normal crime situations. They may only be considered in extraordinary, lethal situations where there is an ongoing, imminent threat. I described that scenario previously during my Senate filibuster.

    "Additionally, surveillance drones should only be used with warrants and specific targets.

    "Fighting terrorism and capturing terrorists must be done while preserving our constitutional protections. This was demonstrated last week in Boston. As we all seek to prevent future tragedies, we must continue to bear this in mind."
    Nice "copy and paste."

    But mine was better.
    Stan b & Elvis

  7. #7
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Rand's been working hard all this morning trying to get his foot out of his mouth regarding his comments regarding the use during a liquor store robbery. He must have been drinking when he said it (I never said he was perfect).

    "
    While it's true that Paul has always made an exception for "imminent threats" -- a 9/11-like moment -- the liquor store scenario struck many libertarians as a very low threshold for domestic drone strikes, especially considering Paul's Senate floor remarks, which if you recall, took a more anti-drone stance.

    "

    HERE'S A COOL NEW WEBSITE AND WHY WOULD SOME rEPUBS ATTACK rON pAUL'S pEACE iNSTITUTE?
    http://ronpaulnews.net/
    Last edited by Franco; 04-24-2013 at 05:09 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  8. #8
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    Goodness RK, don't you know that the one that stirs the "shtuff" has to lick the spoon. I am glad you know how to copy and post a link from drudge. You can also google Rands response where he clarifies after. Rand is not a Libertarian, so i can't hold him to that standard, but he does stand for liberty more than....wait for it....(building suspense for the buzz word)...the NEOCONS....who run the republican party.
    wish you two would make up your mind


    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    I would have to side with Ron over Rand. Though Rand and Justin Amash are the most Libertarian in Congress, Rand may be gravitating more toward the NeoCons & Teas(the two " big government " GOP political factions) side in an attempt to get thier support for his run at POTUS. All of which means Rand would be hard pressed to get the Libertarian support or nod when the GOP establishment rejects him for Rubio. I expect his father to reel him back in
    I actually hope that he doesnt and proves my assertion that Rand is his own man, and not RonPaul 2.0...Rand has some fresh view points and I would like to hear them, not his dad's lines recycled.

    as to Rand gravitating toward the Neocons and the Teas...the TEA Party put him there and I dont think he will bite the hand, as for the "Neocons", Rand is showing that he can play to ALL the fields, which makes him a more versatile Senator and inevitably a stronger candidate
    All my Exes live in Texas

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    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

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    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    What? He's no longer a Libertarian Republican ? how quickly they turn....
    Bill Davis

  10. #10
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    I said in post #3 that he and Amash are the two most Libertarian in Congress.

    I also said that when he gets shunned by the GOP establishment, he is going to have to make a choice.

    Bon, other than he and his father disagree on how many US bases on foreign soil need to be closed and whether drones should be used to kill armed liquor store robbers; could you point out where else they might have some major differences?
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

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