The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 33

Thread: AKC Test "Score Card" Protocol?

  1. #11
    Senior Member djansma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    438

    Default

    I too would like to see the rule that says I have to keep my judges sheets for 6 mo's

    and NO I would not let anyone have my judges sheets but I would let the owner or handler look at my sheets if my co judge agreed as It does say in the rules

    David Jansma
    The time you spend on earth with your dog is precious; enjoy it to your fullest

  2. #12
    Member phillip1119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    85

    Default

    Lady Duck Hunter- Thank you very much for the reply and your services as a judge. Please don't misinterpret my questions as malicious but rather simply a search for a better understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Duck Hunter View Post
    Phillip,
    Maybe I can explain why the judges sheets are kept by the judge and not shared with the world. #1. Most of us use our own form of short hand so much of what is drawn or written is not decipherable to the average person. Maybe penmanship would improve if judges knew they would be viewed by others? #2 The hunt test games are not supposed to set up one dog over another. Yes we use numbers to score each atribute and it is the average of the scores that designates the qualifying dogs. How does that fact that dogs do not compete against one another, have any relevance to whether the scores were made available? Maybe just make the numerical scores available? #3 It would be overwhelming for any club or organization to maintain all the scoresheets on line.... for how long?...and who would care? Most clubs today seem to be financially chanllenged. Use it as a revenue generating opportunity. Charge contestants a fee to download. I may be in the minority but I would have no problem paying for a copy. Adding/uploading to entry express, post test, would take a matter of minutes.

    It is policy for the judges to make the judges sheet for his dog available for the handler to look at for a short eriod after the ribbons are announced. Where would said policy be found? Judges do not have to explain or justify their decisions, but most will discuss strengths and weaknesses with you if you politely ask. I'm assuming this is part of the same policy?

  3. #13
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Taos, New Mexico
    Posts
    8,058

    Default

    Phillip, I have been reading this thread and I have a question for you. Why do you want a copy of the judge's sheet? If you get to look it over after your test, discuss (politely) any questions you may have, what do you need a copy for? If its all 10's are you going to frame it? If you disagree with the judges' judgement are you going to use it to start a petition? I really can not see any valid reason to keep a copy unless you will gain some benefit from studying it. And I do not believe there would be as much benefit in that, as in the discussion you have with your judges. Generally outright failures are pretty transparent if you just read the rule books. Lower scores that do not fail may be more subjective, but that won't change them.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  4. #14
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    N. Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,688

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phillip1119 View Post
    Maybe penmanship would improve if judges knew they would be viewed by others?
    Doubtful. You are trying to draw what the dog did while watching the dog, balancing the book in your hands, taking birds, trying to squeeze your lunch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by phillip1119 View Post
    How does that fact that dogs do not compete against one another, have any relevance to whether the scores were made available? Maybe just make the numerical scores available?
    The scores are made available. You get a pass or a placement. And you can see them. Why should they be made available. I can think of no good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by phillip1119 View Post
    Most clubs today seem to be financially chanllenged. Use it as a revenue generating opportunity. Charge contestants a fee to download. I may be in the minority but I would have no problem paying for a copy. Adding/uploading to entry express, post test, would take a matter of minutes.
    Despite the fact that EE allows no such functionality and they seem to have no interest in doing anything to make it more user friendly (see the new closing to make their lives easier at the expense of HT and FT secretaries) how much money would this generate? Would you pay $100?

    Also, while it might be easy for you someone is going to EE late Sun night or Monday after taking off work on Thursday and/or Friday, working dawn until dark, trying to make sure all the equipment is back just to enter the passes and placements and you want them to run down the judges, get their sheets, scan them and put them on the interwebs?

  5. #15
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bigfork, Montana
    Posts
    3,481

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    Phillip, I have been reading this thread and I have a question for you. Why do you want a copy of the judge's sheet? If you get to look it over after your test, discuss (politely) any questions you may have, what do you need a copy for? If its all 10's are you going to frame it? If you disagree with the judges' judgement are you going to use it to start a petition? I really can not see any valid reason to keep a copy unless you will gain some benefit from studying it. And I do not believe there would be as much benefit in that, as in the discussion you have with your judges. Generally outright failures are pretty transparent if you just read the rule books. Lower scores that do not fail may be more subjective, but that won't change them.
    When I was on my very first judging assignment, the Open at a field trial, a Pro was running my young Golden in the Qual. At the end of the trial I got a report from the Pro and the Qual judge that my dog ran great all weekend and nearly won the Qual. As this was the best he had done up to that point, I asked the Qual judge if I could see his sheet. Unlike hunt test, you don't normally get to see your sheet in a field trial, but I was so proud of him, and didn't get to see him run, so I asked. She said no problem, as a matter of fact she gave the sheet to me to keep as a keepsake.

    So for me it was the keepsake aspect of preserving a memory. I could also see wanting to keep the sheet as a visual reminder of what you need to work on with your dog. I know from experience that most handlers are not good at remembering all the whistles and cast refusals, it frequently comes as quite a surprise to see how that land or water blind actually looked on paper.

    John

  6. #16
    Member phillip1119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    85

    Default

    Absolutely no alternative motives, axes to grind, etc.... Relatively new to the games but have a good understanding of the rule book. Just trying to now understand how said rules are interpreted in the field. Nothing more then that. Unlike most, I have spoken with both judges after each test simply to gaining a better understanding. Unfortunately, 6 months later, the odds of me remembering that conversation, in any detail, is relatively low. Again, nothing more then that. Treating these score cards like nuclear launch codes just seems strange. I guess since no else cares I shouldn't either..... Carry on.....

    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    If its all 10's are you going to frame it?
    Now that is probably more rare then a unicorn but yes, that's the goal!!!!

  7. #17
    Member phillip1119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by john robinson View Post
    so for me it was the keepsake aspect of preserving a memory. I could also see wanting to keep the sheet as a visual reminder of what you need to work on with your dog. I know from experience that most handlers are not good at remembering all the whistles and cast refusals, it frequently comes as quite a surprise to see how that land or water blind actually looked on paper.
    exactly!!!!!

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lady Duck Hunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    half way between Cat Springs and Raccoon Bend - Texas
    Posts
    3,270

    Default

    Phillip,
    Not all policies are written where they can be found. I believe the ones discussed here have been mentioned in the AKC judges & handlers seminar. Maybe it would be advisable for you to attend one. BCSRC will be holding one this July. It is for handlers as well as judges and really gives you better insight into what the judges are looking for. Perhaps after you take it, you will even take steps to become a judge. We always welcome new blood in the judges pool.
    When it stops being fun, I will find something else to do with my time and money.

    The Lady

  9. #19
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    S.W. Washington
    Posts
    3,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phillip1119 View Post
    Absolutely no alternative motives, axes to grind, etc.... Relatively new to the games but have a good understanding of the rule book. Just trying to now understand how said rules are interpreted in the field. Nothing more then that. Unlike most, I have spoken with both judges after each test simply to gaining a better understanding. Unfortunately, 6 months later, the odds of me remembering that conversation, in any detail, is relatively low. Again, nothing more then that. Treating these score cards like nuclear launch codes just seems strange. I guess since no else cares I shouldn't either..... Carry on.....

    Now that is probably more rare then a unicorn but yes, that's the goal!!!!
    One suggestion- attend a judges seminar. This will allow the opportunity to see the world from the other side of the notebook as well as a first hand opportunity to discuss at length any interpretational issues or concerns in a completely neutral environment. Gives you a first hand reply from the representatives of the rule making organization and an opportunity to explore the rationale behind most of the rules.

    Also gets you one step closer to being able to pay back regards

    Bubba
    There are three classes of people: those who see...those who see when shown...and those who do not see. - Leonardo da Vinci

  10. #20
    Senior Member troy schwab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    897

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    Help me here, Karen. What page of the rulebook does it require a judge to keep scoresheets 6 months. Thanks.
    I usually keep them about that long, as I have had someone call me the following week to discuss a dog.
    cant speak for AKC, but for UKC it is one year, stated in the rulebook, before judges code of ethics.
    SHR Presque Isle Jaeger Schwab JH (driving the bus)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •