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Thread: Non collar trainers, what do you do when you get a no-go?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Steve Schreiner wrote :"All will go when they want to.....But ..it takes a trained dog to go when they don't want to go.."
    In the spirit of the OP , I am having a problem understanding what this means?
    Psychologically if the dog is trained to go,surely it would want to go, whether it was trained to any programme? If it takes a trained dog to go when it doesn't want to go, then is it trained,or just compliant?..Just trying to get my head round the comment..I don't have to tell my dog's to sit ,they just do when I stop! So I take it they have learned to sit without being told!..They don't Go until I tell them to go! so they must have learned 'not to go until I say go.
    But when they ''don't want to go" ! is the OP's issue! ..So is the answer in the training of that dog and handler,not the dog.(irrespective of previous achievements) .
    Short statement that meant a lot 'Steve' Hope you don't mind me using your quote as an expression.

    Since a dog can't talk we never know their wants..All we can do is judge their actions..and assume by them...If the dog gives a no-go's we assume it did not want to...The why is where our problem lies...Fear ,too much to ask of the dog ( rough water, too long a swim, out to sea look,) or uncertainty of being sent,confusion in the dogs mind.....Just like people some respond out of a need for action not because they desire to...commitment and courage to perform the act ask of them is the results of training to over come those natural tendencies to quit when the going gets rough, the fear of taking off into the unknown...Compliant, yes..Through proper training they become compliant...Don't ask questions (why) when given instruction ,do as told...Most of the time they learn through some form of negative stimulation to respond in the proper manner.. A balanced approach of rewards and corrections or with holding of the reward ....They develop courage out of the acts of doing through the training process...In the FF process an insecure shy dog will become bolder and confident through the process ..The brash bold dog ( rebel) will learn to be compliant and except instruction...In the OP I believe the answer is the dog, not the trainer...Any dog is capable of this type behavior at any point in their lives...no matter what level of achievements they have in the past...All we as trainers can do is try and instill more courage and confidence in the dogs through more training ..By pushing the demands for performance ( 200 yrd water blind instead of 100) they will rise to a new level of performance...Pressure is not a good replacement for confidence... Fell free to use it in any way you want...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #122
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    Thats when I want a dog that has two things you cant train for..HEART and COURAGE
    And how far is the heart away from the grey matter they call a brain? Thanks Bon.........Jim
    Jim Weitzel
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  3. #123
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Since a dog can't talk we never know their wants..All we can do is judge their actions..and assume by them...If the dog gives a no-go's we assume it did not want to...The why is where our problem lies...Fear ,too much to ask of the dog ( rough water, too long a swim, out to sea look,) or uncertainty of being sent,confusion in the dogs mind.....Just like people some respond out of a need for action not because they desire to...commitment and courage to perform the act ask of them is the results of training to over come those natural tendencies to quit when the going gets rough, the fear of taking off into the unknown...Compliant, yes..Through proper training they become compliant...Don't ask questions (why) when given instruction ,do as told...Most of the time they learn through some form of negative stimulation to respond in the proper manner.. A balanced approach of rewards and corrections or with holding of the reward ....They develop courage out of the acts of doing through the training process...In the FF process an insecure shy dog will become bolder and confident through the process ..The brash bold dog ( rebel) will learn to be compliant and except instruction...In the OP I believe the answer is the dog, not the trainer...Any dog is capable of this type behavior at any point in their lives...no matter what level of achievements they have in the past...All we as trainers can do is try and instill more courage and confidence in the dogs through more training ..By pushing the demands for performance ( 200 yrd water blind instead of 100) they will rise to a new level of performance...Pressure is not a good replacement for confidence... Fell free to use it in any way you want...Steve S
    Well said Steve!!!!And another old saying I always heard was "don`t think ,react" would pretty much sum things up. Jim
    Jim Weitzel
    Proud member of Ole Roy prostaff

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Never done a 15 minute water test! They usually come back with the bird quicker than that
    Done plenty of 6 hour retrieving days five days a week ,retrieving around 30 birds per dog per day ,most of them cripples. The last one was as quick as the first too!
    I believe you can breed courage ,but you can't install it though;)
    Slightly off topic ,but hey ,I thought it deserved a reply.

    I agree with you up to a point....Each dog is genetically given certain behavior characteristics... Through proper conditioning I believe we can enhance or increase some weaker ones and diminish others... Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    Have you ever seen a 15+ minute water test?

    The dog is lining himself up on the mat for the last bird. He has swam 100+ yards twice to bring back the first two. The wind is 20 mph at a right angle. It is 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Maybe he has already run a water blind and 2 series of the Amateur today. This is a dog who wants a bird more than he wants anything else. He knows exactly where the bird is ... he looks out at it across 150 more yards of water. Maybe he gives a couple sideways glances. His ears may be laid back a bit.

    This is a good dog but there aren't enough cookies in the world to make him go after that bird. He wants it but ... maybe ... tomorrow???

    This is the time when you want your dog to know he goes when he hears his name whether it looks like fun or not.

    JS

    And he will be so proud of himself when he gets back!!!




    Very good point....
    This is where we ought to be communicating with the dog that we are proud of it too ....A great big ole GOOD DOG when they pick up that blind or mark goes a long way in building up the confidence in the dog.. Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  6. #126
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    OH DEAR! .......
    I'm sure the OP has good dog too! ..It just doesn't 'Go'
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    OH DEAR! .......
    I'm sure the OP has good dog too! ..It just doesn't 'Go'
    Hi Polmaise, Much thanks for chiming in! I am not trying to troubleshoot a problem I am having. I was just curious about training methods. I am gathering that you and Mr. Mallori are in the same camp---they don't happen much, nothing to deal with.

    I'm still hoping you will describe what the "run in" is!
    Renee P

  8. #128
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Running in, is breaking.

  9. #129
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Never done a 15 minute water test! They usually come back with the bird quicker than that
    Done plenty of 6 hour retrieving days five days a week ,retrieving around 30 birds per dog per day ,most of them cripples. The last one was as quick as the first too!
    I believe you can breed courage ,but you can't install it though
    Slightly off topic ,but hey ,I thought it deserved a reply.
    What you don't comprehend, is that it's not about the test.

    It's about the training, that it takes to be able to do the test.

    A dog that no-goes in response to pressure, will not only no-go in a test (maybe), but will also no-go during training.
    And that's a problem.

    Because it means that you can't continue training, until the dog feels encouraged enough, to allow training to continue.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    What you don't comprehend, is that it's not about the test.

    It's about the training, that it takes to be able to do the test.

    A dog that no-goes in response to pressure, will not only no-go in a test (maybe), but will also no-go during training.
    And that's a problem.

    Because it means that you can't continue training, until the dog feels encouraged enough, to allow training to continue.
    Encouraged or compelled... Either way the dog has to go. Horse has been beaten back to life and dead again.
    Bill Davis

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