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Thread: Non collar trainers, what do you do when you get a no-go?

  1. #101
    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I'm wondering what noncollar users do when the dog fails to go.
    When I was totally "non-collar" for a dog taught to run blinds, the answer was: Step forward, command "heel" (or here) to get the dog moving, then "BACK." If that did not work (seldom) then: Heel, BACK, stick, BACK!

    Your milage may vary.
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  2. #102
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    "only got 50 more points"? ONLY 50? did you just say that? I really don't care how anyone trains their dog but how many FC/AFCs have these successfull non collar trainers made in the last 10 years? And how many Nationals have non-collar dogs been to in the last 10 years? Not knocking how your brother trains at all.
    yes I said that....my point is that form of training works best for us, we are not trying to convert people to non collar training, BUT there is a segment of the population that is hiding in the shadows, they want to train in alternative ways but they come on here and inevitably the talk always goes to what have they done lately

    Clint spoke with someone the other day about dog training for a couple of hours, and they asked him, what has he done in the sport , how many dogs has he titled, how many Nationals has he qualified for, its like they ask questions but what they really want to do is argue training methods, do they really think he is going to abandon his way of training after all these years..its the scientist in him, before he went to med school he majored in microbiology and minored in genetics and got a masters degree,his analytical mind has helped him develop a style that fits him

    There are people here on the RTF that would like to discuss alternative methods of training, but the threads always get ugly because someone always comes on and say why dont you want to use a collar or something to that effect

    Does it ever occur that they arent looking for a collar solution...let them be..let them train how they want...they are no threat to anyone, but they are content with the way they train..If they choose to convert at a later date they will do so because they didnt find what they were looking for with alternative methods
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  3. #103
    Senior Member rboudet's Avatar
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    Just thought your "only 50 points" was funny.

    I think the problem with these threads is when someone mentions non-collar SOME assume they are non-compulsive trainers and thats where the preaching and misunderstanding begins. Pressure is Pressure. I assume, your brother does not train non-compulsive? One method just takes longer to achieve results.

    In the group I train with I would say the majority of the corrections come from verbal, stick or attrition. but, I like the idea of having an extra tool in the box.

  4. #104
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Some of those perpetuating this thread ARE non-compulsion trainers. They have announced they do not want to engage in compulsion. No force fetch, no force to pile, no force anything.

    JS
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    And I won't lump all collar trainers into one big group. I've seen many radical differences in them, too.

    Thanks,
    Jen
    I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I am a rookie (hence the name) and I have already seen several folks who, IMHO, need to have their transmitters taken from them at best or hit upside the head with them at worst. And I have probably been one of them at least a couple times. I try to stay away from painting with any sort of broad brush; as I get older I realize more and more how inaccurate that can be.

  6. #106
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    Just thought your "only 50 points" was funny.

    I think the problem with these threads is when someone mentions non-collar SOME assume they are non-compulsive trainers and thats where the preaching and misunderstanding begins. Pressure is Pressure. I assume, your brother does not train non-compulsive? One method just takes longer to achieve results.

    In the group I train with I would say the majority of the corrections come from verbal, stick or attrition. but, I like the idea of having an extra tool in the box.
    Not sure what You mean by non compulsive.....pressure, you bet he puts pressure on a dog,mentally and just a touch of physical type,( we do not beat a dog)

    the difference between collar and non collar training is philosophy,not necessarily style

    As for taking longer, Clint has done just the opposite, Judge won an Am(21 months) and and Open(weekend he turned two..Rex won at 2.5yrs old....fast forward 25 years and Mirk and Nola won Qual stakes on consecutive weekends the week after they turned age 2...Nola won an Amateur in '07 in Idaho and an Open in Canada (handled by C. LaCross) along with going nine series in the Canadian National Open, so its not that he hasnt won in the last ten years

    Clint challenges a dog at a very young age, one of my favorite stories is a well known dog trainer once came up to him in Texas and said "son, you are going to ruin that dog, trying to do that advanced work with such a young dog"....that summer Clint qualified for his first National Am with Judge at age 25 months..that same trainer came up to him and said "son ,do you remember me ?" Yes Sir Clint replied.." well let me be the first to admit that I was wrong, if I hadnt seen it for myself , I would have never guessed it was the same dog"
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Really? You'd dumb things down for an NFC? Certainly they understand Go! at that point.

    If the dog knows the command and understands it ,Why didn't he go ?
    Just because the dog has NFC in front of it's name doesn't carry any weight with me ....The dog has a problem, fix the problem ...If you don't or can't use some form of force, ear pinch, whipping stick or what ever you use,what choice do you have? Something caused the no-go..If it was not collar pressure out front it has to be a mental issue ...Fear , uncertainty, no picture , confusion ,lack of understanding , something happened out front or the dog may just be giving lack of effort...The handler has to make that call.... If this was the first time the dog has done this , I would probably write it off as a mistake and move on with a simple heel ,sit, hand down and back again....Steve S

    PS: and I know 2 OTCH dogs that don't know SIT.....And the handlers agree....Titles ?
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 05-03-2013 at 10:09 PM.
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #108
    Senior Member TexGold's Avatar
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    I am a reluctant collar trainer. I basically don't like the idea of conditioning with a stimulation when the dog is performing a command correctly.

    On the other hand, my dog had a serious no go problem. Cannot figure why. We simplified, we used attrition. We used the stick sparingly. No results. Finally, my partner and mentor said, "we have got to get some force in him. " I really didn't know what that meant, but since he is a big collar advocate, I had a clue.

    We went thru a pretty intense session of FTP. I feared the entire time that we were ruining my dog. It turned out fine. No more no god. Sometime later, a month or so, no go appeared again. We didn't mess around. We took him straight back to the same spot we had done FTP before. He figured out the déjà but aspects quickly. It has been a couple of years, no problems since.

    I might add a few things: these were his first and only real tough love force sessions. I did FF and CC with him, but was very light because of my fundamental problem stated above. Other thing, this is a pretty soft Golden.

    Last thing- I have very limited time to train. Because of that I will sacrifice some principle and my next dog will be traditionally FF and CC. May God have mercy on my soul.
    "When a man is proud of his dog and shows it, I like him. When his dog is proud of him and shows it, I deeply respect him.” — Gene Hill

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexGold View Post
    I am a reluctant collar trainer. I basically don't like the idea of conditioning with a stimulation when the dog is performing a command correctly.

    On the other hand, my dog had a serious no go problem. Cannot figure why. We simplified, we used attrition. We used the stick sparingly. No results. Finally, my partner and mentor said, "we have got to get some force in him. " I really didn't know what that meant, but since he is a big collar advocate, I had a clue.

    We went thru a pretty intense session of FTP. I feared the entire time that we were ruining my dog. It turned out fine. No more no god. Sometime later, a month or so, no go appeared again. We didn't mess around. We took him straight back to the same spot we had done FTP before. He figured out the déjà but aspects quickly. It has been a couple of years, no problems since.

    I might add a few things: these were his first and only real tough love force sessions. I did FF and CC with him, but was very light because of my fundamental problem stated above. Other thing, this is a pretty soft Golden.

    Last thing- I have very limited time to train. Because of that I will sacrifice some principle and my next dog will be traditionally FF and CC. May God have mercy on my soul.



    This process does not have to be traumatic to the dog...It can be humanely done and is by many every day....Best wishes with your project....Steve S
    PS: Then He blessed them, and God said to them ,"Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;have dominion over the fish of the sea,over the birds of the air,and over every living thing that moves on the earth.." Gen 1;28
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #110
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    A wise man once told me ,"all of em will go as long as it`s under their conditions" that's all I`m sayin as I have no "pelts". Jim
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