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Thread: Non collar trainers, what do you do when you get a no-go?

  1. #11
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    Before I had a collar, they told me to ear pinch and move forward. It worked for the only dog I ever tried it on. About 22 years ago.
    was it from the same man who taught me that same thing 36 years ago ? he also taught me how to crack a whip just behind the dog's rear end, but the first time I tried it I hit my own leg and it was me that yelped, not the dog....
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    You assume that we got a no go....Clint has had only ONE in his FT career, and it was after he had sent one of his dogs off to train with someone else...We dont get them in training for one simple reason...We dont push the dog to the bird, we let the attraction of the bird PULL the dog to the retrieve...

    Right about now someone out there is calling BS...but thats because most on here have never met or let alone trained with us/Clint...I do know how the old timers got their dogs to go, but then again they all went with the premise of pushing the dog to make them go...We run sight blinds, lots and lots of them, and not little gimme ones with a white bucket..We even set a sight blind up as the last thing we do in the evening, and then run it first thing in the morning as if we were dog # 1 on the line to the waterblind on Sat/Sun morning..

    Your next Q will be , how do you transition to cold blinds, and the answer is after running so many sight blinds our dogs know that when we lean over,place our hand down and whisper "dead bird- way back" that there is a payoff at the end of the line..the other reason is that we NEVER false line our dogs, we dont FTP, run T or TT, and run the same blind over and over again..our mantra is one retrieve-one bird

    to the OP, I might be at Lee Kay next week before the trial,because I am meeting Lanse on his way to MT...if you want to train and see let me know
    This is very similar to my philosophy.

    I got some no goes when I was introducing my cuing for blinds. There was confusion between "where" to look out and "back" to run out, and after not being reinforced for leaving on "where" he didn't want to leave on "back." Which was information to me that I was lumping things together in my mind, and needed to split them out for my dog. When I took a step back and taught looking out and kicking off as separate skills, when I put them back together the problem was gone.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    I don't think there should be confusion on the "back" word. Not if basics are solid.
    There may well be confusion, what to do, after dog has gone.

    But...go they should understand, black and white. Just seems to me, simplify, happy dog up, for a no go.. may well be sending the absolute wrong message.

    So whether it's ear pinch, whack the ground with stick, collar...should be some correction.
    Go, stop, come, are not optional. They are commands.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cakaiser View Post
    I don't think there should be confusion on the "back" word. Not if basics are solid.
    There may well be confusion, what to do, after dog has gone.

    But...go they should understand, black and white. Just seems to me, simplify, happy dog up, for a no go.. may well be sending the absolute wrong message.

    So whether it's ear pinch, whack the ground with stick, collar...should be some correction.
    Go, stop, come, are not optional. They are commands.
    That's what I was taught when I started some years ago, but as you advance into the all age it gets more complicated. Now we are telling our dog not just to go on command, but we have taught the dog various places not to go or he will be corrected. Of course these problems are created by us in the way we teach concepts, but what worked well and was no problem for the last five dogs through your program, you might find one that perceives it differently.

    In my earlier post I mentioned one dog like that. I love this dog, he's probably the smartest dog I have ever trained, he is a real team player with good natural marking talent and a great willingness to work with me. He is also sensitive and hates to get in trouble, he is very "rules oriented". Give him a angle down the shore picture, or really any picture that he recognizes and knows how to deal with it, and he does a good job with good momentum, but throw some contrary look at him and he feels like he's being set up. In that case he worries, he doesn't want to go "there", whether he feels he's being sent next to water without getting in, or being pointed at some other taboo. If I put a correction on him here, he will go, but it will be the wrong place, usually way off line. I have learned not to fuss to much on line as the more I nag him trying to get the perfect "look out" the more nervous he gets. If I can walk up on line and sit the dog with his spine lined up, as soon as he's looking at all correct I say back and he will go. It might not be a perfect initial line, but he handles well and we move on from there.

    I have found that despite what I learned when I started out, there are few black and white issues in dog training. I have learned to relax certain standards with this dog and find different ways to train him. It has worked well, he has a first, second, three thirds and a fourth in Quals and just Jammed a very difficult Amateur, his was the only JAM.

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    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    That's what I was taught when I started some years ago, but as you advance into the all age it gets more complicated. Now we are telling our dog not just to go on command, but we have taught the dog various places not to go or he will be corrected. Of course these problems are created by us in the way we teach concepts, but what worked well and was no problem for the last five dogs through your program, you might find one that perceives it differently.

    In my earlier post I mentioned one dog like that. I love this dog, he's probably the smartest dog I have ever trained, he is a real team player with good natural marking talent and a great willingness to work with me. He is also sensitive and hates to get in trouble, he is very "rules oriented". Give him a angle down the shore picture, or really any picture that he recognizes and knows how to deal with it, and he does a good job with good momentum, but throw some contrary look at him and he feels like he's being set up. In that case he worries, he doesn't want to go "there", whether he feels he's being sent next to water without getting in, or being pointed at some other taboo. If I put a correction on him here, he will go, but it will be the wrong place, usually way off line. I have learned not to fuss to much on line as the more I nag him trying to get the perfect "look out" the more nervous he gets. If I can walk up on line and sit the dog with his spine lined up, as soon as he's looking at all correct I say back and he will go. It might not be a perfect initial line, but he handles well and we move on from there.

    I have found that despite what I learned when I started out, there are few black and white issues in dog training. I have learned to relax certain standards with this dog and find different ways to train him. It has worked well, he has a first, second, three thirds and a fourth in Quals and just Jammed a very difficult Amateur, his was the only JAM.
    Umm..yeah. OK. I understand, it depends.
    I was not addressing how to run a dog at a trial.
    I was addressing the failure of a basic command.

    No. I do not perceive it differently. Even after many years.
    If handler says back...they have to go.

    BTW...maybe you teach your dog, where "not to go". We don't.
    Congrats on your Q places and jam.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

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    Senior Member big gunner's Avatar
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    I trained a trial dog back in the early 70's pre-collar. There were many ways to make a dog go off the line and go fast. and even putting your hands on the dog. I am pretty sure that the dogs were tougher back then. I think they needed to be to survive. The trainers were also more fit as the had to catch many a dog for various disobedience. A lot of running back then as I remember. I think it is still a good thing to put your hands on your dog just so he knows where the correction is coming from. Did dogs run out of fear back then? A lot did. So the collar in the correct hands is just another tool that should be used properly. So what happens when the dog just decides when he want's to retrieve and when not. Or what about FF do I pick up the bird or not, What is he going to do about it. Is this a case of "spare the rod and spoil the dog." Interesting thread.Oh yea I heard F.T.'s entry fees will be heading to the 100.00 mark expensive no-go.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cakaiser View Post
    Umm..yeah. OK. I understand, it depends.
    I was not addressing how to run a dog at a trial.
    I was addressing the failure of a basic command.

    No. I do not perceive it differently. Even after many years.
    If handler says back...they have to go.

    BTW...maybe you teach your dog, where "not to go". We don't.

    Congrats on your Q places and jam.
    I totally agree with Charlotte...any punishment is not given for the dog "no going", its for the dog refusing a basic command...

    we also do not show a dog where not to go..it just adds to the confusion...instead we try and teach the dogs the "highest probability" of where the bird will be, i.e. the mark will be found in front of the guns where they are facing, not behind the gun...as Ted S. has stated on more than one occasion,"make the mark tough to get to but easy to find" (hope I quoted him correctly)


    and FWIW I am not saying that the method I use will never result in a "no go", that is like saying my dog has never broken on honor....I am just trying to cut down on the possibility it will ever happen....
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    I totally agree with Charlotte...any punishment is not given for the dog "no going", its for the dog refusing a basic command...

    we also do not show a dog where not to go..it just adds to the confusion...instead we try and teach the dogs the "highest probability" of where the bird will be, i.e. the mark will be found in front of the guns where they are facing, not behind the gun...as Ted S. has stated on more than one occasion,"make the mark tough to get to but easy to find" (hope I quoted him correctly)


    and FWIW I am not saying that the method I use will never result in a "no go", that is like saying my dog has never broken on honor....I am just trying to cut down on the possibility it will ever happen....
    Bon we are talking about no-goes on blinds. I oversimplified when I said we train dogs where not to go, but the result of teaching dogs water is a safe place to be by correcting them for cheating a bank on a cheating single, is akin to inadvertently teaching them there is danger in running on land down a shore. When we correct a young dog for going back to the flyer, if we're not careful we inadvertently teach them to stay clear of old falls and get big banana lines on tight marks, and have a tough time teaching them to run under the arc on a blind.

    I'm just saying some dogs are more sensitive to the "rules" a dog thinks it has learned. I guarantee you that if I correct my sensitive "rules" oriented dog for no-going on what he perceives to be a dangerous line, he'll go alright, just not anywhere near where I want him. Not saying I never do correct for the no-go, otherwise how would I know it doesn't work with him. And sometimes I lose my patience and give him a correction, then handle back on line from way out in left field. I have just found that the better way to teach this dog, is to get him comfortable with what he perceives as dangerous lines. With time and consistent training, gently getting him used to these things, the no-goes go away.

    John

  9. #19
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    was it from the same man who taught me that same thing 36 years ago ? he also taught me how to crack a whip just behind the dog's rear end, but the first time I tried it I hit my own leg and it was me that yelped, not the dog....
    Nope, but one of his sometime training partners.

    There was an advanced stick fetch drill where you had a close in pile. You hit the dog with a short stick on the send, give the dog a freebie, hit the dog with a longer buggy (longer stick 6' or so)whip on a send, give the dog a freebie, send the dog, swing the buggy whip but miss the dog swinging either just above him or just behind him. Supposedly this got the dog running fast thinking he had outrun the stick. I don't think it worked to well but lots of people said it, if they didn't actually do it. Our dogs today are not as tough as they were in yesteryear. Thank God.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    I think a lot of this is, trying to communicate on internet. Trying to write something, generally speaking.
    Generally speaking, refusal of a basic command..sit, go, stop, come.. is grounds for correction. And, not simply an indication, dog is confused, trainer needs to happy the dog up. That is all it is.
    Assuming basics are solid.

    There are exceptions to any general rule.
    Last edited by cakaiser; 04-29-2013 at 07:06 PM.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

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