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Thread: Non collar trainers, what do you do when you get a no-go?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I disagree! When told to go, the dog has to go. No ifs, ands, or buts.

    A basic command for a retriever.

    I agree Howard ,if you are using a compulsion ,force based program ...but the OP ask what to do when you are not using that type program....Show and tell, sight blinds , reheal forward , and all the other things mentioned can be tried and are successful at times...The reason for a force based program is for the very reason you stated...The dog must perform the command given , no question ask...Not if you like it or not , not if you are confused or not , not if you know where to go or not ....just go ,stop , come when commanded....For the non-collar folks check out Michael Ellis videos ....Even he has come to acknowledge the use of the e-collar and the benefits of it...As Rex said " a fully forced dog shows no sign of ever being forced"......"Fully" implies properly too....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #32
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I agree Howard ,if you are using a compulsion ,force based program ...but the OP ask what to do when you are not using that type program....Show and tell, sight blinds , reheal forward , and all the other things mentioned can be tried and are successful at times...The reason for a force based program is for the very reason you stated...The dog must perform the command given , no question ask...Not if you like it or not , not if you are confused or not , not if you know where to go or not ....just go ,stop , come when commanded....For the non-collar folks check out Michael Ellis videos ....Even he has come to acknowledge the use of the e-collar and the benefits of it...As Rex said " a fully forced dog shows no sign of ever being forced"......"Fully" implies properly too....Steve S
    No, the OP only asked about non collar trained dogs no-going. I had an AFC that was non collar trained... but by god, when I said back, he better go or there was going to be some "compulsion". Or maybe Propulsion!
    Bill Davis

  3. #33
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I agree Howard ,if you are using a compulsion ,force based program ...but the OP ask what to do when you are not using that type program....Show and tell, sight blinds , reheal forward , and all the other things mentioned can be tried and are successful at times...The reason for a force based program is for the very reason you stated...The dog must perform the command given , no question ask...Not if you like it or not , not if you are confused or not , not if you know where to go or not ....just go ,stop , come when commanded....For the non-collar folks check out Michael Ellis videos ....Even he has come to acknowledge the use of the e-collar and the benefits of it...As Rex said " a fully forced dog shows no sign of ever being forced"......"Fully" implies properly too....Steve S
    What happens when you run out of ideas/ non force methods ? Are you down to accepting it this time and hoping you dont get it again when it really counts?
    Shawn White

    HR Big Creek Retrievers Independence Day JH QAA "Indy "

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn White View Post
    What happens when you run out of ideas/ non force methods ? Are you down to accepting it this time and hoping you dont get it again when it really counts?
    What happens when you've used force, and still get no goes?

    You back up, identify the hole in your training, fix it as best you can, and move forward. The problem solving process is the same no matter what tools you are using.
    Professional trainers would lack a job
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    No, the OP only asked about non collar trained dogs no-going. I had an AFC that was non collar trained... but by god, when I said back, he better go or there was going to be some "compulsion". Or maybe Propulsion!
    I wasn't going to jump in as I have trained a dog that had 13 points with a win a almost AFC and I agree. Now how I dealt with a no go probably wouldn't be acceptable to the OP. I used a flat strap traffic lead, struck the dog in the chest and repeated back, back, back and got fair results. I suppose not different today using a whip stick on the rear or flank.
    Unfortunately as time progressed the strap didn't work and more forceful methods were used , I won't elaborate.
    I have found out after a couple of FC/AFC 's using the new fangled collar training I can't remember a serious no go issue. Just saying!
    Earl Dillow

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    I wasn't going to jump in as I have trained a dog that had 13 points with a win a almost AFC and I agree. Now how I dealt with a no go probably wouldn't be acceptable to the OP. I used a flat strap traffic lead, struck the dog in the chest and repeated back, back, back and got fair results. I suppose not different today using a whip stick on the rear or flank.
    Unfortunately as time progressed the strap didn't work and more forceful methods were used , I won't elaborate.
    I have found out after a couple of FC/AFC 's using the new fangled collar training I can't remember a serious no go issue. Just saying!
    My bambo rattle sticks got pretty good results with minimal energy expended... I got quite a bit of grief pre-national training one year with Patopea, Andy Attar, Pat Burns and a few others about the rattle stick. I think Andy suggested I add an on/off switch to it just for grins!
    Last edited by huntinman; 04-29-2013 at 10:48 PM.
    Bill Davis

  7. #37
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaeganW View Post
    What happens when you've used force, and still get no goes?

    You back up, identify the hole in your training, fix it as best you can, and move forward. The problem solving process is the same no matter what tools you are using.
    What if its not a hole ,but a matter of the dog deciding that today he really doesnt want to,and you can clearly identify that ...then what?
    Shawn White

    HR Big Creek Retrievers Independence Day JH QAA "Indy "

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    My bambo rattle sticks got pretty good results with minimal energy expended... I got quite a bit of grief pre-national training one year with Patopea, Andy Attar, Pat Burns and a few others about the rattle stick. I think Andy suggested I add an on/off swithch to it just for grins!
    I still have one they were used in the martial arts. More effective then a whiffle bat almost forgot ,been doing this new fangled collar program, Bill too long. Thanks for the memory.
    Earl Dillow

  9. #39
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    If you have a fully forced dog who no-gos, why do you think the dog is no-going in that instance? If you have an FC dog who has been fully forced and regularly wears the collar in training and he no-gos, why do you think that is?

    I saw a fully forced, pro-trained, collar trained black lab no-go in a late series at the field trial this weekend. Then what? Do you think he no-goed because he was test wise and knew he didn't have the collar on and thought it would be fun to be disobedient? Or was it because he didn't really mark the bird and wasn't sure where to go?

    Bottom line in my limited pea brain view is that even if the dog is collar trained and has faced the consequences of no-going (ie burn, buggy whip) OR, if the dog was not collar trained and no-goes, the reason remains the same: dog doesn't know exactly what go means in the particular instance. I think most dogs think "Rover" means retrieve marked bird and that "Back" means be confident there's a bird or bumper out there to retrieve. If you call"Rover" and rover didn't see a bird fall, he's probably not going to go. If you call "back" and he's not confident there's a retrieve out there, he's probably not going to go. Right? I really don't think dog is saying "screw you, I don't care if there's a bird, I'm not gettin it for you, cause I don't wanna." He wants to get a bird. He's a field bred, pro-trained black lab for goodness sake.

    So to Shawn, I say: If a pro-trained, FC collar trained dog no-goes - as Charlotte has said does happen, what happens then? Are you going to accept it this time and hope it doesn't happen again when it really counts?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    I still have one they were used in the martial arts. More effective then a whiffle bat almost forgot ,been doing this new fangled collar program, Bill too long. Thanks for the memory.
    A bamboo shinai. Makes a great sound as it smacks the target.
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