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Thread: Non collar trainers, what do you do when you get a no-go?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    The pro brought a dog to the line that still had holes in it. He does that a lot he won't be a pro all that long. If it's a dog now and then, then even the best pros can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    'Course it could just be the stage that particular dog is in right now. And, sometimes the client wants the dog run against the pro's wishes. Can't say, except dogs and people are imperfect.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  2. #42
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    If you have a fully forced dog who no-gos, why do you think the dog is no-going in that instance? If you have an FC dog who has been fully forced and regularly wears the collar in training and he no-gos, why do you think that is?

    I saw a fully forced, pro-trained, collar trained black lab no-go in a late series at the field trial this weekend. Then what? Do you think he no-goed because he was test wise and knew he didn't have the collar on and thought it would be fun to be disobedient? Or was it because he didn't really mark the bird and wasn't sure where to go?

    Bottom line in my limited pea brain view is that even if the dog is collar trained and has faced the consequences of no-going (ie burn, buggy whip) OR, if the dog was not collar trained and no-goes, the reason remains the same: dog doesn't know exactly what go means in the particular instance. I think most dogs think "Rover" means retrieve marked bird and that "Back" means be confident there's a bird or bumper out there to retrieve. If you call"Rover" and rover didn't see a bird fall, he's probably not going to go. If you call "back" and he's not confident there's a retrieve out there, he's probably not going to go. Right? I really don't think dog is saying "screw you, I don't care if there's a bird, I'm not gettin it for you, cause I don't wanna." He wants to get a bird. He's a field bred, pro-trained black lab for goodness sake.

    So to Shawn, I say: If a pro-trained, FC collar trained dog no-goes - as Charlotte has said does happen, what happens then? Are you going to accept it this time and hope it doesn't happen again when it really counts?
    No, Jennifer, if Rover didn't see the bird fall, and you say "Rover" Rover is supposed to go. If Rover forgot where the long retired gun is, and you point him at it and say "Rover," Rover is supposed to go. If Rover goes straight he might run right into the bird he didn't see fall or forgot about. If Rover knows to go, you still have a chance to stay in the competition or pass the test.
    Renee P

  3. #43
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    If you have a fully forced dog who no-gos, why do you think the dog is no-going in that instance? If you have an FC dog who has been fully forced and regularly wears the collar in training and he no-gos, why do you think that is?

    I saw a fully forced, pro-trained, collar trained black lab no-go in a late series at the field trial this weekend. Then what? Do you think he no-goed because he was test wise and knew he didn't have the collar on and thought it would be fun to be disobedient? Or was it because he didn't really mark the bird and wasn't sure where to go?

    Bottom line in my limited pea brain view is that even if the dog is collar trained and has faced the consequences of no-going (ie burn, buggy whip) OR, if the dog was not collar trained and no-goes, the reason remains the same: dog doesn't know exactly what go means in the particular instance. I think most dogs think "Rover" means retrieve marked bird and that "Back" means be confident there's a bird or bumper out there to retrieve. If you call"Rover" and rover didn't see a bird fall, he's probably not going to go. If you call "back" and he's not confident there's a retrieve out there, he's probably not going to go. Right? I really don't think dog is saying "screw you, I don't care if there's a bird, I'm not gettin it for you, cause I don't wanna." He wants to get a bird. He's a field bred, pro-trained black lab for goodness sake.

    So to Shawn, I say: If a pro-trained, FC collar trained dog no-goes - as Charlotte has said does happen, what happens then? Are you going to accept it this time and hope it doesn't happen again when it really counts?




    No ,you finally found a viable hole in your FC ,to train on, I guess.

    I'm not implying WONT , but maybe you lessen the chance at a crucial time, even non collar training you are conditioning a response ,correct?

    I'm also trying to understand ,as I think understanding the complete science of CC (per trainer ) is very complicated in itself.
    Shawn White

    HR Big Creek Retrievers Independence Day JH QAA "Indy "

  4. #44
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    No, Jennifer, if Rover didn't see the bird fall, and you say "Rover" Rover is supposed to go. If Rover forgot where the long retired gun is, and you point him at it and say "Rover," Rover is supposed to go. If Rover goes straight he might run right into the bird he didn't see fall or forgot about. If Rover knows to go, you still have a chance to stay in the competition or pass the test.
    That's what I'm saying Renee - if a dog knows what go means, they're going to go - if they don't, they won't. Has nothing to do with being forced or not. It happens to dogs who are force trained.

    Edit: by the way, my dog did not no-go, just in case that's what you were thinking.
    Last edited by Jennifer Henion; 04-30-2013 at 12:11 AM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    If you have a fully forced dog who no-gos, why do you think the dog is no-going in that instance? If you have an FC dog who has been fully forced and regularly wears the collar in training and he no-gos, why do you think that is?

    I saw a fully forced, pro-trained, collar trained black lab no-go in a late series at the field trial this weekend. Then what? Do you think he no-goed because he was test wise and knew he didn't have the collar on and thought it would be fun to be disobedient? Or was it because he didn't really mark the bird and wasn't sure where to go?

    Bottom line in my limited pea brain view is that even if the dog is collar trained and has faced the consequences of no-going (ie burn, buggy whip) OR, if the dog was not collar trained and no-goes, the reason remains the same: dog doesn't know exactly what go means in the particular instance. I think most dogs think "Rover" means retrieve marked bird and that "Back" means be confident there's a bird or bumper out there to retrieve. If you call"Rover" and rover didn't see a bird fall, he's probably not going to go. If you call "back" and he's not confident there's a retrieve out there, he's probably not going to go. Right? I really don't think dog is saying "screw you, I don't care if there's a bird, I'm not gettin it for you, cause I don't wanna." He wants to get a bird. He's a field bred, pro-trained black lab for goodness sake.

    So to Shawn, I say: If a pro-trained, FC collar trained dog no-goes - as Charlotte has said does happen, what happens then? Are you going to accept it this time and hope it doesn't happen again when it really counts?
    At a trial you have no choice but to walk away. Deal with it in training. You can't read the dog's mind. It could be something about the "picture" that brought a ghost out of the dogs closet. The dog could be sick or injured and the handler may not know... could be anything if it's not a recurring theme with that dog. Hell, for that matter it could have been a whole bunch of H2O with wind blowing? That will stop a lot of them if they are tired... (although they should go when sent)

    But when you get back to training, try to recreate a similar picture and tell the dog he/she they are going to do the blind... IMO... Then do what you have to do to get that done.
    Bill Davis

  6. #46
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    That's what I'm saying Renee - if a dog knows what go means, they're going to go - if they don't, they won't. Has nothing to do with being forced or not. It happens to dogs who are force trained.
    Ok, gotcha.
    Renee P

  7. #47
    Senior Member shawninthesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    That's what I'm saying Renee - if a dog knows what go means, they're going to go - if they don't, they won't. Has nothing to do with being forced or not. It happens to dogs who are force trained.

    Edit: by the way, my dog did not no-go, just in case that's what you were thinking.
    So after however many years ( say 3 ) a dog has ran blinds ,then all of a sudden it "forgets " ? I think their memory may start to fail when it works best for them if they have only been trained to do what is asked of them and not told of them.

    Even Micheal Jordan didnt want to go to work every day.
    Shawn White

    HR Big Creek Retrievers Independence Day JH QAA "Indy "

  8. #48
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn White View Post
    [/B]


    No ,you finally found a viable hole in your FC ,to train on, I guess.

    I'm not implying WONT , but maybe you lessen the chance at a crucial time, even non collar training you are conditioning a response ,correct?

    I'm also trying to understand ,as I think understanding the complete science of CC (per trainer ) is very complicated in itself.
    I agree. That's why to me, it seems Go is not basic. It seems complicated.

  9. #49
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    When you reach the top of the mountain in the field trial retriever game where championship points are awarded and the training level, talent, etc are that high many things happen. To keep a balance week to week, month to month fill the dogs head with perhaps upward to 120 different senarios, sometimes since they are only dogs, Murphy's law occurs. I have judged trials where I watched National Field Champions have to be picked up by the handler with a four wheeler because the dog wouldn't come in. I have watched dogs give no goes because the tone of the voice was either too soft or two hard. Judged a trial where a later two times National Field Trial Champion decided to eat a a bird and the handler had to go out and get the dog. Watched another National Field Champion, two times, be sent on a water blind, jump in and swim a 90 degree to the shore refuse to swim out to sea. I watched as my five year old FC/AFC National Open Finalist hunt a flyer pheasant first bird down hunt the bird for three or four minutes and had to be picked up and at another trial blew up on a goose nest, refused to come in after many whistles, had to use a boat to get her. All these dogs went on to do great things, were not ruined, but, they were only dogs in their brain scattered moment. It's a very long journey and very few make it all the way. One can be analytical all they want but unless you have made the journey, well? I dunno, there only dogs.
    Earl Dillow

  10. #50
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Why did he do that? He's a dog.
    Bill Davis

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