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Thread: How are returns looked upon?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mark Teahan's Avatar
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    Default How are returns looked upon?

    I hunt moving water, and Trap is used to going in after the bird but swims straight back to shore and runs the bank back.
    We need work, as most times he will enter the water straight to the mark, but do I have to train him in calm water, to turn around and come straight back to pass senior.
    I am trying to find a suitable place to do swim by, but most ponds are way too big.
    He is able to pass senior level except the bank running, as long as I can be 100% sure he enters straight.

    I am told the return is not judged.

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    Senior Member PennyRetrievers's Avatar
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    If I'm not mistaken, the return trip is not judged in AKC events. I've seen dogs make a straight b-line to a mark, but then take a curvy s-shaped path along the bank to come back, and still pass the test.

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    Generally speaking, the return is not judged unless you ask me to judge it. How you say? If a dog is returning by squaring the bank and the handler tries to handle the dog to stay in the water, I'll judge the handling. If the dog doesn't stay in the water at that point, he may get dinged for trainability. How much will depend on how pronounced it is. If the handler blows a whistle and indicates "stay in the water" and the dog does, it's no big deal. If the handler keeps blowing the whistle and the dog keeps ignoring him, that'll hurt.
    Eric

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    They are not supposed to be under judgement on the return but some judges may see it differently. That said if the dog does run the bank on the return you are more likely to get in trouble if you try to handle him back into the water than just letting him finish the retrieve on land.

    Bert
    Bert Rodgers

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    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    They are not supposed to be under judgement on the return but some judges may see it differently.
    This is not in the book, although I don't know of any judges that judge the return. They are under judgement from the time they are called out of the last holding blind until they are behind the judges after being excused from the test.

    I believe most judges will do as Eric Johnson posted above.
    Howard Niemi

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    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    This is not in the book, although I don't know of any judges that judge the return. They are under judgement from the time they are called out of the last holding blind until they are behind the judges after being excused from the test.

    I believe most judges will do as Eric Johnson posted above.
    I'd say that judges do well to not put themselves in a box when judging. Leave the window open and judge what you see.

    Let's say, for example, a judge says "I do not judge the return. I only judge the dog to the bird."

    After that, there are 2 dogs that run the series. One dog hits the water, hammers the mark, charges squarely back to the shore, runs the bank back immediately, and without delay to the handler and promptly delivers the bird. His time from launch to delivery is among the fastest of the pack.

    Another dog hammers the mark, picks it up....then meanders back to the same exit point as the prior-described dog. He then sniffs some bushes, trots along the bank, sniffs at a dead squirrel, and finally arrives at the handler. He takes the absolute longest total time out of any dog in the pack.

    In my mind's eye, I would see dog 1 in great shape and dog 2 potentially a failure.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

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    Senior Member Mark Teahan's Avatar
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    So bird lands near shore, Trap goes straight for it in the water, grabs the bird, and heads to the shore and runs back, heels, delivers to hand, I should just shut up and let him do his thing, and get a pass?
    He got used to diving in the current, getting carried down stream, heading off the floating bird, turning around and swimming back squaring to shore somewhere down stream and running back up the bank to me.
    I can't expect him to try to swim against the current.
    I watched 2tall's dog swim a few feet from shore, grab a bumper and swim back in a pond.
    The pond is too big to work with Trap, and Im afraid I can't break/train Trap to do the swimming back and forth properly.
    Last edited by Mark Teahan; 05-07-2013 at 01:31 PM.

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    For a point of reference, this is from the AKC HT rulebook:


    III. Minor Dog Faults. Either severe or repeated or
    combinations of these “minor” infractions may summate into
    a “moderate” or even a “serious” fault. Also, they may be so
    slight as not to warrant any penalty at all.
    1. Excessive cheating on return – going out of the way by
    land from a “fall” to an excessive degree to avoid going into the
    water
    Tom Dorroh

  9. #9
    Senior Member i_willie12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Teahan View Post
    So bird lands near shore, Trap goes straight for it in the water, grabs the bird, and heads to the shore and runs back, heels, delivers to hand, I should just shut up and let him do his thing,
    YUP!! If they fail you for that just shake their hand and move on! Its a marking test!! Not a style test!! Field trails are style test!! My dog will run bank.. Run bank back He takes the quickiest route some times... Everytime he's done it in a test i just laugh and the judges go hey its a marking test!! Heck my dog has done that twice at the Grand on marks.. Only thing i would say is if your dog is screwing off.... or stops and smells the roses on the way back that might raise their eye brow!!! But him going over to bank to run back to you... Wouldnt worry about it!
    "Some people pride themselves on how far they can shoot ducks, others pride themselves on how close they can get them. I'm an other!!! "
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  10. #10
    Senior Member FOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Teahan View Post
    So bird lands near shore, Trap goes straight for it in the water, grabs the bird, and heads to the shore and runs back, heels, delivers to hand, I should just shut up and let him do his thing, and get a pass?
    It depends on your standards and your end goals.

    As I see it you have three options:

    1) Do as you said, shut up and let him do his thing and put it in the hands of the judges
    2) Handle your dog on the return and make him return by water and put it in the hand of the judges and/or end up picking up your dog cause he won't handle back into the water on the return
    3) Not run until your dog is properly decheated
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