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New Breeder Question: Full or Limited Registration?

26K views 128 replies 54 participants last post by  drunkenpoacher 
#1 ·
I'd like to pick other breeder's brains a bit. I have stuggled trying to decide whether to sell puppies with a full registration or a limited registration.

What is your policy and what is your reasoning behind it?

Swack
 
#36 ·
Short of running a background check on each potential buyer, and interviewing their neighbors, veterinarians, etc. there is no way to know for sure whether a buyer will follow through with what is promised...even friends can sometimes have circumstances that change the dynamic.

Limited gives some protection to the dog, owner and kennel that only dogs physically/genetically sound will be bred. Does it take care of the idiots who will breed and sell pups "not papered" or breed designer dogs? No, but it seems to thin them out a bit.

The majority of my pups go into hunting homes. According to AKC, 40% of owners from my last three litters have not registered their pups at all. So they are willing to purchase pups from me because of the health clearances, soundness and care taken in the breedings.

Meredith
 
#38 ·
Limited gives some protection to the dog, owner and kennel that only dogs physically/genetically sound will be bred.
I really don't think it does.
At all.

For every dirtbag it screens, it drops two responsible buyers, that would have done the right thing anyway.
 
#39 ·
How many years have you been breeding and how many litters have you bred, to come up with these numbers?
 
#44 ·
I'm not trying to get in the middle of an argument but I do think a lot of very good potential buyers won't even look at a limited registration. I'm not a breeder but just looking at anecdotal evidence from friends and the responses on this thread tells me that. Many of the bad backyard type breeding situations seem to not be registered anyway so it really just stops someone from registering the pups, not breeding. Nor does limited registration mean that the pup will be in a good home where the dog is loved, cared for and not abused or neglected.

I think if you're a breeder that has a few litters per year, it's almost impossible to place every pup in a good home. Some owners will not do right by the dog and the breeders may never find out. I think the best you can do is screen the buyers to the best of your ability and follow up on the dog until you're satisfied.
 
#49 ·
One thing a breeder can do is to advertise or put on their website that most puppies are sold with Limited registration. And that Full registration may be considered at the breeders discretion. Or something like that. It scares away some that just want to breed and nothing else or that just want your kennel name to breed. They are afraid of all the questions the breeder might ask. Maybe then people would know Full is available, but just to ask and be expected to answer some extra questions that might not be asked of people only wanting a non breeding dog.
 
#51 ·
Totaly agree with Sharon Potter. Limited Reg has become the norm, rather than the exception with Goldens (as Swampcollie mentioned).


I do not charge extra for converting to full registration. However, clearances are not the only reasons for not wanting to see a dog bred.

For conversions, I would advise breeders to sign the conversion papers & keep them in the litter file. If anything should happen to you, this will expedite things. The date can be added when needed. Same for any dogs you co-own.

I rarely co-own dogs. Right now I just co-own one.

Limited Reg is not infallible, but it can act as a bit of deterrent if you don't make a perfect judgment on a buyer. We are only human in making those judgments. Some people will not tell you the whole truth. Also, there are several "registries" out there that will provide anyone with a fancy pedigree certificate simply for a price. Pet buyers don't know the difference, so they equate any kind of "certificate" as equal to AKC.

With Goldens one can look on k9data and find tons of obscure pedigrees ... from breeders who are one-timers and from those who turn their bitches into puppy machines for the cash; who know nothing about clearances ... and they eventually trace back to kennel prefixes that we recognize. So, I'd rather do everything I can to avoid my puppies ending up in such a situation.
 
#52 ·
I won't say I never will, but to date, I have not bought a limited registration pup. Had quite a discussion with a breeder that I wanted a pup from. I told him that he should not sell me a pup under any circumstances if he thought I was that irresponsible. I do understand the reasdon for LR, but I'm not doing it...
 
#53 ·
I told him that he should not sell me a pup under any circumstances if he thought I was that irresponsible.
I wouldn't sell a puppy to someone that I perceived as irresponsible, but I don't personally know most of my puppy buyers. It may be easy to "court me" and make me believe somethings that may not be necessarily true with the amount of contact that I have with someone before they buy a puppy. Limited Registration is my safety net. I just want to make sure people do the right thing before they breed a puppy that has my pedigree.
 
#54 ·
I'm old school. I have never bought a dog with any type conditions placed upon my ownership(nor do intend to) and to be fair I don't pay attention to breeder guarantees.
I have found it interesting that many breeders that do limited registration also insist on their kennel names being on the registration.
As a buyer it is my responsibility to choose a breeder and breeding of quality, health and otherwise. As a seller I likewise have a duty to place puppies appropriately.

JMO

Tim
 
#55 ·
.
I have found it interesting that many breeders that do limited registration also insist on their kennel names being on the registration.
.

JMO

Tim
I always found that interesting also. Seems their "noble concern for the breed" is matched by their selfish concern for publicity. In many cases the "noble" concern also serves an {unintended Im sure} purpose by limiting competition.:)
 
#56 · (Edited)
I won't buy on Limited, aside from things happening to the breeder, when I get around to do health-screens and maybe thinking about breeding my dog. I just feel it questions my integrity, the care I give my dogs and my word. I can understand breeders wanting to protect their lines, and I will talk to a breeder with limited if they have an exceptional breeding, however if I cannot get the limited lifted; I'll move on to another litter. I've never had a problem getting it lifted, but hey if a breeder doesn't want to sell to someone with a history of actually working-campaigning their dogs, and is a shameless brag, too bad for them ;). I've bred 1-3 litters, I do not sell on limited, realistically if I ever got the feeling from a buyer that I'd have to consider limited registration, they don't need to be owning one of my pups. I'm pretty particular on where my pups go, but then I don't breed much, and I'm perfectly willing to train them up, until the proper fit comes around. Still with most buyers it's more of an issue convincing them not to spay-neuter until we see what the pups can do.
 
#58 ·
Nothing against anyone in particular. It seems that selling with a limited registration is saying, "do as I say not as I do."
 
#60 ·
Not trying to be a "wiseguy", but I'm not sure what you mean by this. If I carefully monitor my breeding program, I would like to see others carry on that practice with any dogs they may decide to breed that come from me. Actually, it's more like saying "do as I do". But maybe I'm missing something here.

Going back to using the prefix, if the dog does pass all health exams, I like the idea that my prefix shows up all together on the OFA site. If anyone wants to check out the history of the bloodlines records (even after I'm long gone), they will have a good chance of finding that there are many dogs there. Most buyers who are educated enough might find that useful.

How many people look at the third generation of breeding and think ill of the kennel of the first generation? I do not think it is a factor.
There are many of us who look back even farther than three generations in a pedigree. Breeders can often point to dogs in the pedigree even farther back and give some pretty detailed information on those dogs.

If the buyer does jump through the hoops, what is to prevent him/her from breeding to any untested bitch with an owner that is willing to come up with the stud fee.
Absolutely nothing. Limited Reg is not infallible, but some of us feel it helps to emphasize the responsibility one takes when deciding to breed. At the very least, at the time of the "conversion", it gives us another opportunity to stress the importance of choosing mates carefully, and how much the breeder cares about the years they have invested in building the ancestry of the dog in question. I always offer to act as a sounding board to the owner for discussing the dog's possible mates, and give them whatever information I have collected from 30+ years of involvement in the breed.

I'd hope that anyone with a pup from me would not have trouble tracking me down :) We should have kept in touch during the pup's life and shared its progress.

I think we should also keep in mind, that the buyer is always free to say "no", and go to another breeder who will not require limited registration. Each breeder and each buyer has things they feel are "the right thing to do" from their own particular perspective.

It also stands to reason that even breeders who use limited registration have a network of friends and fellow breeders whom they trust implicitly, for whom they don't feel the need to limit registration. When one is dealing with someone they have known very briefly, they are more cautious. Many of those on this forum are probably the kind of people who are NOT the kind of people who take the responsibility of breeding lightly. Anyone who has had a dog with health problems, or has died of cancer under the age of 10, understands the kind of responsibility that breeders take to heart ... even for those things that we really could not have anticipated, but because we know the emotional pain of losing a dog or seeing a dog in pain.
 
#59 ·
I am another one that would not buy a pup with a limited registration. We have not bred our dogs, but if we decided to do so, I would not want to have to track down the breeder and get a full registration. People come and go in the retriever games, they move, etc. over a period of time.

If the buyer does jump through the hoops, what is to prevent him/her from breeding to any untested bitch with an owner that is willing to come up with the stud fee. How many people look at the third generation of breeding and think ill of the kennel of the first generation? I do not think it is a factor.
 
#62 ·
Does Mary Howley insist that you use the Candlewood name when registering your dog when you purchase a pup ?
 
#63 ·
Not directly addressing Candlewood. But it seems that there was a time when the kennel/breeder signed off giving one PERMISSION to use said name. NOT requiring that you use it.

The Kennel names were registered and protected, not forced as a purchase agreement..

No contract, handshake deal regards :cool:
 
#65 ·
I'm with you Howard, when I buy one I buy all of it and I will not be told what I can name it, call it , feed it or if I am allowed to breed it. If you are buying one with limited registration you may want to reconsider just what you are buying?
 
#68 ·
I wont buy on a limited. I also dont sell on a limited. What happens if the breeder dies or something happens and you can get a hold of the breeder to get it lifted. the breeder I bought my dog from I was tryignto find them to tell them how good the has been but they went through some personal issues and their house burned down. I cant find them at all. That would have sucked if I bought my dog on a limited.

then people want to throw arond the arguement that once they get the titles and clearance they will lift the limited. So they trust you enought you take your money for the dog but not enough to be responsible.

Also you cant show a dog with a limited registration.
 
#70 · (Edited)
I only purchase puppies with full registration. I have done CERF and OFA on my older dog and will have the same tests performed on my others when they are old enough. If I choose to breed my dogs I think that it is MY decision and MY decision alone. If I do breed, I would like to sell the puppies to loving homes and hopefully to owners who will use the dogs for hunting, HT, etc. However, when someone pays me for a puppy and drives away with it, it is their baby and they can and will do with it as they please.

You can screen potential buyers, make them sign contracts, etc. but you cannot control the future. Someone who you think will be the perfect owner of one of "your" puppies could end up be a horrible owner.

I personally think many folks have a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to breeding their dogs. After all how many of these breeders are geneticists? I would guess very, very few if ANY.

How many of these breeders considered the pedigree of their spouse before marrying and producing their own offspring?

Flame away.

Lonnie Spann
 
#71 ·
So when you purchase a dog on full, do you expect a warranty for hips, elbows, eyes? Do you expect the breeder to be there for you in a couple of years if something goes wrong? Will you follow the breeder's recommendations for feeding, exercise, etc. based on their years of experience?

Or is it buy the dog and walk away?

Meredith
 
#74 ·
When I purchase a puppy I only purchase a puppy whose parents have good hips, elbows and eyes. Warranty, I dont need a warranty. Warranties vary by breeder, some warranties require that the genetically unsound puppy be returned to the breeder, who wants to give Fido away after they have bonded with him for presumably two years? Most warranties state that the breeder will replace with a puppy of similar breeding. Why would I want a puppy from the same breeder from a similar breeding if said breeder has already sold me one genetically unsound puppy? Maybe, hopefully, I have the only puppy from the litter that has exhibited these poor traits and it was just my bad luck.

In my opinion the breeder did all that they could do when they bred two genetically sound dogs and produced the litter. Some dogs, regardless of their breeding, will end up with bad hips, bad elbows, or bad eyes. If this wasn't true we wouldn't still see this happen from time to time in some dogs from what many would consider very selective and well-planned breedings.

I would certainly contact the breeder and inform them of any defects discovered in the puppy.

I don't need the breeder's recommendations for feeding, exercise, etc.

Pretty much for me, its buy the dog and walk away. I research the litters before making a purchase and I make the decision to purchase from a particular litter. Therefore, if something doesn't turn out exactly as planned I feel like I should shoulder some of the blame. If the breeder makes misrepresentations that would be a different matter.

Lonnie Spann
 
#73 ·
The pups I have sold on limited registration (to pet/hunting homes), I have in the contract that AKC may change the registration to full after clearances are done with passing results on OFA in the event I am unable to sign (ie death). People that are doing tests/trials/have done clearances on previous dogs, I sell on full registration. I see it as a tool to encourage people to do the clearances that may not know about them or how to do them...I'll give them all the information needed to get those clearances. I'm not trying to keep people from breeding, but if they're going to do it, do it responsibly by doing health testing and not end up breeding dogs with hip dysplasia or produce dogs that are EIC/CNM affected.
 
#75 ·
However, when someone pays me for a puppy and drives away with it, it is their baby and they can and will do with it as they please.
After a couple of poor placements early on, I decided that my responsibility extended further than this. These were living, breathing things, not like a truck or a piece of furniture. They came into the world as a decision I made (good or bad), and I am responsible for doing that; and for trying to get them the best home possible. So, any of my puppies are returnable, for any reason, at any age ... and there is a refund (on a sliding scale based on age), but never less than $100.

I am not holier than thou ... but I have a responsibility to each of those living things, in my mind, at least.


You can screen potential buyers, make them sign contracts, etc. but you cannot control the future. Someone who you think will be the perfect owner of one of "your" puppies could end up be a horrible owner.

That is exactly the point of my use of limited registration. And that is why I use it with a lifetime, returnability warranty. Taken together, it is my attempt to insure that none of my puppies will end up in a rescue organization or the dog pound. Not infallible, of course. Many years ago, I took a bitch back when she was three years old. The owners had neglected training her, and they called her incorrigible. She was so filthy that I had to give her two baths. After the first bath, the water was literally black. She also had hookworm. God bless her "bombproof" personality. I chose to co-own her with some good friends. She had one litter ... and from that one litter she became my first GRCA Outstanding Dam (one MH**, one MH***, one UD; along with one CD, WCX, and one CD, WC)


I personally think many folks have a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to breeding their dogs. After all how many of these breeders are geneticists? I would guess very, very few if ANY.

No, I am not doing this as "holier than thou." It is just a matter of taking responsibility for the puppies by the means available to us. You would be correct that very few breeders are geneticists. However, years of experience and observation (not just of our own breeding program, but the breedings others do), can give some idea of what works, and what does not. The learning process is never-ending. The Seeing Eye keeps control and tracks ALL of the puppies they produce. Individual breeders have fewer resources for doing that good a job, so we use what resources we can.


How many of these breeders considered the pedigree of their spouse before marrying and producing their own offspring.
Sorry, humans are not dogs. Humans, for the most part, are far less interbred that our purebred dogs. When European royalty tried linebreeding, it didn't work out that great for them. Yet, linebreeding is not uncommon in dogs. There are also father/daughter breedings, etc. Dogs v. humans is not really the best comparison. My own son is a "mutt" ... 1/2 Italian and 1/2 Irish/English :)
 
#76 ·
Many years ago, I took a bitch back when she was three years old. The owners had neglected training her, and they called her incorrigible. She was so filthy that I had to give her two baths. After the first bath, the water was literally black. She also had hookworm. God bless her "bombproof" personality. I chose to co-own her with some good friends. She had one litter ... and from that one litter she became my first GRCA Outstanding Dam (one MH**, one MH***, one UD; along with one CD, WCX, and one CD, WC)
What does that have to do with limited registration?

Limited registration does not do anything to ensure that the dog will be well taken care of.
Limited registration does not prevent the owner from breeding the dog.
Limited registration does not prevent the owner from breeding the dog to another dog that you would not approve of.

All it does, is prevent the owner from being able to register the litter with the AKC. That's ALL that it does.

For those of you that sell on limited, what would you do if a bitch you sold got accidentally bred on it's second heat while in training with a Pro?

Would withholding full registration at that point, accomplish anything that you consider beneficial?

No, it wouldn't.
And because of that fact, all that your clients would have to do to get their limited registration lifted, is breed their dog "accidentally" to another quality dog that just happens to be AKC registered.
 
#79 ·
It has nothing to do with limited registration, per se, but rather addresses the "responsibility" issue for a breeder. Limited registration is simply one of the resources that I feel helps me fulfill my responsibility to the pups that I produce. And, in this particular case, being responsible in that way, can sometimes turn out to be worth the effort.

Yup, they could snooker me, and ignore all the education I try to give them before lifting the limited registration. I converted a registration last year to full. My relationship with the owner is such that I believe the owner is thankful that they will be able to pick my brain about any breeding prospects.

I've also been around enough years to know that even breeders whom I highly respect will choose some breedings that I might not do myself (and I may do some breedings that they would not choose to do). Yet, in the end, because those breeders are truly worthy of respect, I have found that I may later draw upon the results of some of the breedings they have done in the past. So, even with my advice an owner may choose a breeding that I would not have chosen myself. As they progress through getting the health examinations, I get the chance to educate them along the way. Then I leave them to their own conscience.

Limited registration is NOT a substitute for any of the things a responsible breeder should do for the owners of ALL the pups in a litter. For owners with previous experience in the breed, who have knowledge of health, mental and training issues, the task is pretty easy. For those who are starting out from square one, more time and effort is needed.
 
#78 ·
If the AKC registration papers say "Limited" on them there is one safe bet.

It's someone else's dog.

All or nothing regards

Bubba
 
#80 ·
Limited reg. is more for the "Pet Population" NOT folks who are active in the sports of dogs. Most folks that are active Retriever nuts know how to take care of a puppy, ect.................... I for one hate long contracts. If with one or two conversions you as a breederpotential seller of a puppy can't figure me out and still need me to fill out a long drawn out contract that asks me allot of dribble questions than " I'm Out". Some breeds are worse with contracts than others. My 2cents on a cold raining day. :)Sue
 
#81 ·
Puppy purchase contracts...reckon how many of these:

1. Were drafted by an attorney;
2. Are enforceable;
3. Contain language that is ambiguous.

The few that I have viewed contained major legal loopholes. Have any of you EVER been a party to a legal action envolving your written guarantee?

Lonnie Spann
 
#82 ·
I'm into my own lines 6 generations now and I still have been known to go back to a stud owner for suggestions on breeding the pup that came from their stud,

How long is a generation? Just curious.
 
#85 ·
John,
What is the interval between you and your parents? Or you and your children (if you have any kids). That is one GENERATION. For my Labs, that interval is anywhere from 3-7 (at the most) years. So really, 6 generations could be done in 18 yrs here. At most, well, that's not yet determined.
 
#86 ·
Yeah, that's what I thought. Just wondered if it's 25 years in people is it 2-3 years for dogs, or 3-7.
 
#89 ·
How about 2 to 5? For physiological reasons, I wouldn't favor breeding a girl later than 5; probably prefer around 3. For males, they may not attract attention until they are around 5 and have begun to show their mature capabilities; though some might be precocious and show solid promise earlier.

I have 8 generations (#8 is 3-1/2 now) ... with the first generation whelped in 1979 ... that would be 34 years ... so each generation works out to be about 4 years. That's only breeding mostly about once/year; sometimes longer between breedings. Might have had more generations, if I had not had to start over with new genes after one litter in 1971. But some failures like that can also factor into the generation span.
 
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