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Thread: New Breeder Question: Full or Limited Registration?

  1. #71
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    So when you purchase a dog on full, do you expect a warranty for hips, elbows, eyes? Do you expect the breeder to be there for you in a couple of years if something goes wrong? Will you follow the breeder's recommendations for feeding, exercise, etc. based on their years of experience?

    Or is it buy the dog and walk away?

    Meredith

  2. #72
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Spann View Post
    I personally think many folks have a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to breeding their dogs. Lonnie Spann
    lonnie,

    i know a few breeders who i can say for sure are "holier than thou"!

    i even know a few who are "holier than me"!

    jmc
    john mccallie

  3. #73
    Senior Member Cedarswamp's Avatar
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    The pups I have sold on limited registration (to pet/hunting homes), I have in the contract that AKC may change the registration to full after clearances are done with passing results on OFA in the event I am unable to sign (ie death). People that are doing tests/trials/have done clearances on previous dogs, I sell on full registration. I see it as a tool to encourage people to do the clearances that may not know about them or how to do them...I'll give them all the information needed to get those clearances. I'm not trying to keep people from breeding, but if they're going to do it, do it responsibly by doing health testing and not end up breeding dogs with hip dysplasia or produce dogs that are EIC/CNM affected.
    High Tess JH
    Cedar Swamp's Linden JH
    Cedar Swamp's Cuttin a Rug
    Cedar Swamp's Holy Terror JH (3 SH passes)
    Blackfoot's Mr Independence at Cedar Swamp JH
    Cedar Swamp's Angel in Disguise
    Cedar Swamp's Test Pilot
    Cedar Swamp's Bonanza
    Cedar Swamp's Twisted Sister

    Others have also graced our hearts...gone not forgotten.
    RC Buckshot of Seven Hickories MH
    Ceader Swamp's Deuces Wild SH
    Fallen Timber's Second Chance MH
    Ceader Swamp's Mac Millett SH
    and several others...

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lonnie Spann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk56 View Post
    So when you purchase a dog on full, do you expect a warranty for hips, elbows, eyes? Do you expect the breeder to be there for you in a couple of years if something goes wrong? Will you follow the breeder's recommendations for feeding, exercise, etc. based on their years of experience?

    Or is it buy the dog and walk away?

    Meredith
    When I purchase a puppy I only purchase a puppy whose parents have good hips, elbows and eyes. Warranty, I dont need a warranty. Warranties vary by breeder, some warranties require that the genetically unsound puppy be returned to the breeder, who wants to give Fido away after they have bonded with him for presumably two years? Most warranties state that the breeder will replace with a puppy of similar breeding. Why would I want a puppy from the same breeder from a similar breeding if said breeder has already sold me one genetically unsound puppy? Maybe, hopefully, I have the only puppy from the litter that has exhibited these poor traits and it was just my bad luck.

    In my opinion the breeder did all that they could do when they bred two genetically sound dogs and produced the litter. Some dogs, regardless of their breeding, will end up with bad hips, bad elbows, or bad eyes. If this wasn't true we wouldn't still see this happen from time to time in some dogs from what many would consider very selective and well-planned breedings.

    I would certainly contact the breeder and inform them of any defects discovered in the puppy.

    I don't need the breeder's recommendations for feeding, exercise, etc.

    Pretty much for me, its buy the dog and walk away. I research the litters before making a purchase and I make the decision to purchase from a particular litter. Therefore, if something doesn't turn out exactly as planned I feel like I should shoulder some of the blame. If the breeder makes misrepresentations that would be a different matter.

    Lonnie Spann
    DISCLAIMER: The above post is the opinionated and biased view of your's truly, Lonnie Spann, and is in no way intended to reflect the opinions or views of the unfortunate individuals named below who just happen to be doomed with guilt by association.

    Member of CAHRC and North AL HRC. I train with AND AM FRIENDS WITH: Fishduck, Laidback, Splash_Em, RF2, Drake2014, Claimsadj, Hooked on Quackers, RookieTrainer and Roseberry.

    HRCH Spann's Quacker Jack "Jack" 500 Pt. Club (New & IMPROVED jacket).

  5. #75
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    However, when someone pays me for a puppy and drives away with it, it is their baby and they can and will do with it as they please.
    After a couple of poor placements early on, I decided that my responsibility extended further than this. These were living, breathing things, not like a truck or a piece of furniture. They came into the world as a decision I made (good or bad), and I am responsible for doing that; and for trying to get them the best home possible. So, any of my puppies are returnable, for any reason, at any age ... and there is a refund (on a sliding scale based on age), but never less than $100.

    I am not holier than thou ... but I have a responsibility to each of those living things, in my mind, at least.


    You can screen potential buyers, make them sign contracts, etc. but you cannot control the future. Someone who you think will be the perfect owner of one of "your" puppies could end up be a horrible owner.

    That is exactly the point of my use of limited registration. And that is why I use it with a lifetime, returnability warranty. Taken together, it is my attempt to insure that none of my puppies will end up in a rescue organization or the dog pound. Not infallible, of course. Many years ago, I took a bitch back when she was three years old. The owners had neglected training her, and they called her incorrigible. She was so filthy that I had to give her two baths. After the first bath, the water was literally black. She also had hookworm. God bless her "bombproof" personality. I chose to co-own her with some good friends. She had one litter ... and from that one litter she became my first GRCA Outstanding Dam (one MH**, one MH***, one UD; along with one CD, WCX, and one CD, WC)


    I personally think many folks have a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to breeding their dogs. After all how many of these breeders are geneticists? I would guess very, very few if ANY.

    No, I am not doing this as "holier than thou." It is just a matter of taking responsibility for the puppies by the means available to us. You would be correct that very few breeders are geneticists. However, years of experience and observation (not just of our own breeding program, but the breedings others do), can give some idea of what works, and what does not. The learning process is never-ending. The Seeing Eye keeps control and tracks ALL of the puppies they produce. Individual breeders have fewer resources for doing that good a job, so we use what resources we can.


    How many of these breeders considered the pedigree of their spouse before marrying and producing their own offspring.
    Sorry, humans are not dogs. Humans, for the most part, are far less interbred that our purebred dogs. When European royalty tried linebreeding, it didn't work out that great for them. Yet, linebreeding is not uncommon in dogs. There are also father/daughter breedings, etc. Dogs v. humans is not really the best comparison. My own son is a "mutt" ... 1/2 Italian and 1/2 Irish/English
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  6. #76
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Many years ago, I took a bitch back when she was three years old. The owners had neglected training her, and they called her incorrigible. She was so filthy that I had to give her two baths. After the first bath, the water was literally black. She also had hookworm. God bless her "bombproof" personality. I chose to co-own her with some good friends. She had one litter ... and from that one litter she became my first GRCA Outstanding Dam (one MH**, one MH***, one UD; along with one CD, WCX, and one CD, WC)
    What does that have to do with limited registration?

    Limited registration does not do anything to ensure that the dog will be well taken care of.
    Limited registration does not prevent the owner from breeding the dog.
    Limited registration does not prevent the owner from breeding the dog to another dog that you would not approve of.

    All it does, is prevent the owner from being able to register the litter with the AKC. That's ALL that it does.

    For those of you that sell on limited, what would you do if a bitch you sold got accidentally bred on it's second heat while in training with a Pro?

    Would withholding full registration at that point, accomplish anything that you consider beneficial?

    No, it wouldn't.
    And because of that fact, all that your clients would have to do to get their limited registration lifted, is breed their dog "accidentally" to another quality dog that just happens to be AKC registered.

  7. #77
    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Spann View Post
    You can screen potential buyers, make them sign contracts, etc. but you cannot control the future. Someone who you think will be the perfect owner of one of "your" puppies could end up be a horrible owner.

    I personally think many folks have a "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to breeding their dogs. After all how many of these breeders are geneticists? I would guess very, very few if ANY.

    Lonnie Spann
    True to a degree, but since there "probably" isn't a "perfect" pedigree out there, wouldn't you want to know as much about that pup as possible before you breed? To me, this is what Limited helps me do. It helps me get to know the owner (since I probably don't know how genetically savvy they are about dog breeding in this case) during those first couple years. Most folks really DONT know much about genetics, but I would hope your breeder would know a bit about his/her lines in particular. Wouldn't you want to know that your pup's great grandfather may have produced "xyz" disorder that we don't have a genetic test for yet, so that you can be extra diligent to try to avoid it?

    Maybe you don't need puppy care and feeding tips, but wouldn't you want to have a good enough relationship w/ that breeder to help make some more informed decisions? I'm into my own lines 6 generations now and I still have been known to go back to a stud owner for suggestions on breeding the pup that came from their stud, just so I can learn more about that side if need be.

    A good example is a person posting on another Lab chat board the other day. His pointing Lab from a well known kennel (no name attached) was being neutered and began to have heart issues. Ends up the dog has TVD. Now, how many of you in the field world are doing Cardiac testing even in the basic sense (beyond your regular vet listening)? Wouldn't you want to know if there was a cardiac issue behind your lines so you could at least go get an Echo done?

    No, limited doesn't prevent everything, but it's better than nothing.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
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    If the AKC registration papers say "Limited" on them there is one safe bet.

    It's someone else's dog.

    All or nothing regards

    Bubba
    There are three classes of people: those who see...those who see when shown...and those who do not see. - Leonardo da Vinci

  9. #79
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    What does that have to do with limited registration?

    Limited registration does not do anything to ensure that the dog will be well taken care of.
    Limited registration does not prevent the owner from breeding the dog.
    Limited registration does not prevent the owner from breeding the dog to another dog that you would not approve of.

    All it does, is prevent the owner from being able to register the litter with the AKC. That's ALL that it does.

    For those of you that sell on limited, what would you do if a bitch you sold got accidentally bred on it's second heat while in training with a Pro?

    Would withholding full registration at that point, accomplish anything that you consider beneficial?

    No, it wouldn't.
    And because of that fact, all that your clients would have to do to get their limited registration lifted, is breed their dog "accidentally" to another quality dog that just happens to be AKC registered.
    It has nothing to do with limited registration, per se, but rather addresses the "responsibility" issue for a breeder. Limited registration is simply one of the resources that I feel helps me fulfill my responsibility to the pups that I produce. And, in this particular case, being responsible in that way, can sometimes turn out to be worth the effort.

    Yup, they could snooker me, and ignore all the education I try to give them before lifting the limited registration. I converted a registration last year to full. My relationship with the owner is such that I believe the owner is thankful that they will be able to pick my brain about any breeding prospects.

    I've also been around enough years to know that even breeders whom I highly respect will choose some breedings that I might not do myself (and I may do some breedings that they would not choose to do). Yet, in the end, because those breeders are truly worthy of respect, I have found that I may later draw upon the results of some of the breedings they have done in the past. So, even with my advice an owner may choose a breeding that I would not have chosen myself. As they progress through getting the health examinations, I get the chance to educate them along the way. Then I leave them to their own conscience.

    Limited registration is NOT a substitute for any of the things a responsible breeder should do for the owners of ALL the pups in a litter. For owners with previous experience in the breed, who have knowledge of health, mental and training issues, the task is pretty easy. For those who are starting out from square one, more time and effort is needed.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Sue Kiefer's Avatar
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    Limited reg. is more for the "Pet Population" NOT folks who are active in the sports of dogs. Most folks that are active Retriever nuts know how to take care of a puppy, ect.................... I for one hate long contracts. If with one or two conversions you as a breederpotential seller of a puppy can't figure me out and still need me to fill out a long drawn out contract that asks me allot of dribble questions than " I'm Out". Some breeds are worse with contracts than others. My 2cents on a cold raining day. Sue
    Never confuse activity with success.

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