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Thread: Obamacare - The Work of Conservatives

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    I do not disagree with a single word of your post. However, if you insert the word "government" before expenditure( which you imply) then I totally disagree with you. Obamacare has 16,000 pages of rules and regulations. It has over 2,000 waivers. I won't be surprised if the number of pages exceedes the tax code of over 70,000 within 10 years. 130,000 pages of procedure codes a doctor must use in order to bill for treatment. By the way the codes are 8 didgets. As I have said many times, the gov. has not, is not and never will be in the business of charity. It is in the business of rules, regulation, taxes, DEPENDENCE and CONTROL. I believe the underlying premise of both menmon's and my post is that the very mess of complexity is the result of legislators who might fairly be accused of seeking political and perhaps financial gain from seeing the legislation they created, fail

    A simple question. Do many of your countrymen now cross the border to come here for treatment just to see our country or do they come here because your country denies them the freedom to hire a doctor for the treatment they desire, and does your country deny doctors the freedom to ply their legal trade to those who wish to pay them for their services? There are those who have the means pay and the desire to avoid waiting, There is also a category of cosmetic surgery tourists from the middle income demographic who travel to India for faces lifts, tummy tucks etc. from UK trained doctors who returned home to Mumbai and New Delhi to practice their medicine. The very notion of universal medical care is based upon doctors billing within the system...cosmetic care is in most cases elective and not constrained b the single pay model.

    I once treated a patient from the former West Germany and another from Japan. The West german patient was here only for the summer. I asked her why she did not have the work done in her country and her response was that she could not get it done in her country because the national healthcare system did not provide it and she could not pay for it there. Neither patients' prior treatment would meet the dental standard or ordinary care in this country. I have a mouth full of crowns....the product of too many fillings and a desire to eat healthy whole grains. Our medical system does not cover routine non trauma oral care, I provide a supplemental HC plan for myself and our employees. I am unfamiliar with dental treatment in other countries however I have lived in Japan and can attest to an apparent hereditary propensity to malocclusion, not too dissimilar from conditions detected in Great Britain. For general medicine, Japan is regarded as the best state provider of health care on the planet
    You might look at the cost of healthcare in this country as a % of GDP and you would see that it remained stable until gov. creation of medicare and medicaid in 1965 when the cost imediately began to increase at a sharp rate. For an insurance system to run effectively it must be adequately funded, this is from our Medical Service Provider web site:

    "From January 1, 2012, to December 31, 2012 monthly rates are $64.00 for one person, $116.00 for a family of two and $128.00 for a family of three or more. Effective January 1, 2013, monthly rates are $66.50 for one person, $120.50 for a family of two and $133.00 for a family of three or more."

    Our rates have been irrationally low; thirty five years ago the rate was, if I remember correctly about half this. Your government could rectify this without resorting to 16,000 pages of baffle gab. i have let my elected reps know that I would rather pay a reasonable price now than risk losing the system entirely due to underfunding.

    Prior to 1965, we had a system where those who could pay did so and those who could not pay through no fault of their own, were treated through charity. It was not a perfect system but it worked in my opinion. If you were to go to a doctor and say that you knew that the treatment you needed was not covered by your gov. healthare system, would he please treat you free? I wonder what your opinion is as to what response you would receive. The only problem are with speed of access not the treatment or procedures themselves, however we do have a problem with cue jumping facilitated by physicians who want to make a premium over the standard rate. But as example closer to your question, in the field of Dentistry; before we joined a plan my dental work was on my dime, the rate for the same work increased by about 20% when I told my dentist I was now covered by insurance. When I asked him why the jump he just smiled and said "well now your covered, so price isn't an issue"

    When I first went into practice in the 70's I did have patients come to me in need of care that said that they couldnot afford to pay me for some reason or another. Some wold promise to pay when they could. My response was to ask them if they were on medicaid. If the answer was no then my attitude was that if the government had decided that they were not needy then why should I think otherwise. Later I realized that it was not the government's responsibility to make such a decision for me. It was MY responsibility to determine who was needy and MY responsibility to deal with their care. I have no doubt that I made mistakes but this only made me more aware of my responsiblity. We need look for ways to perfect a single payer system which works, I have no doubt there are many of us in business on either side of our border who wish the government would do less/do more /do it right/ do it for less of our tax dollars. The thing is, can profit be placed ahead of healthcare? Lets face it other than addictive substances is there anything else easier to exploit for maximum profit than one's health? If you were robbed you wouldn't want 911 to demand proof of solvency or insurance coverage.

    I don't know it to be true but I once read that the US was the only country that had a net positive expense of foreign aid. All other countries received more aid that they gave. Please don't think that we don't care about the health of our citizens. There are just many of us that believe the gov. is a poor vehicle to provide it. Take a look at the history of this country and I don't think you could believe otherwise. As far as local personal generosity goes I have no doubt with what you state other than, to counter that our society is too large and too complex to handle all issues of need on an ad hoc personal basis, again just to belabour the point; some communities rely on volunteer fire depts, but after a certain size they see the value in creating a funded firedepartment. As to the issue of Foreign Aid, that I have to rely on others for the answer to that...now don't we all wish we had a Norwegian benefactor?

    Read more:http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html
    My comments are in red above.
    Last edited by blind ambition; 05-01-2013 at 04:42 PM. Reason: syntax and cognitive discrepencies which might lead to the rejection of otherwise excellent logic
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    One of my brothers was a CFO/controller for a hospital in SoCal, I have often heard him speak the same exact thing...he said it did more to create needless paperwork that leads to nowhere, and has done little in the grand scheme of things
    This is a good article on the beginning of the detruction of the world's best healthcare system.

    http://capitalismmagazine.com/1999/1...story-of-hmos/

    Typical of our government. In thier attempt to do good, they have actually made it much worse. Which is pretty much what they do with everything they touch, except for our military. The very same military they like to abuse by making them police the world. BTW Bon, Ron Paul has been an advocate of returning to the pre HMO/PPO system for decades!
    .................................................. ..........

    From their beginnings, HMOs were designed–by Democrats and Republicans–to eliminate individual health insurance. The result is a vast network of health care collectives (HMOs, PPOs, Point-of-Service plans) created by government that are destined to do harm to individuals.
    The individual was first discouraged from buying insurance in 1942 when employee health premiums were made tax deductible to employers–not to individuals. Congress created Medicare in 1965, making individual insurance for those over 65 obsolete. Subsidized, unrestricted health care for seniors lead to an unprecedented frenzy of spending by patients and doctors.
    Costs went up, introducing an economic obstacle to individual health insurance. As costs rose, those on the New Left, including then freshman Sen. Ted Kennedy, argued that government ought to pay for everyone’s health care and promoted the idea of a health maintenance organization, a term coined by a left-wing college professor.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by roseberry View Post
    i consider myself a generous and charitable person. i enjoy and consider it a duty to give to those i see and that i know are experiencing true need. all Americans seem to have common senses of duties and generosity. for example, how many billions of dollars did U.S. citizens contribute internationally to aid in the tsunami? we are the most generous and prosperous people on earth.

    i enjoy giving........i don't necessarily enjoy my government giving for me. often i don't see as needy who my government sees as needy. my view is if we were all left to choose, i could give temporarily to a fellow church member's family who's bread winner lost a job. when he was employed again, i could find another suitable recipient of my generosity.

    alternatively, menmon could set up auto draft for monthly contributions to planned parenthood or the united nations relief fund or whoever he from his perspective he deems worthy.

    we could eliminate 4/5ths of government and we would all still be "doing the right thing" for everyone we as a nation feel the need to support. we would just take all the costly non effective government middle men out of charity work.

    cary, if my taxes were lower, i would even help a brother out with some bad teeth!(provided methamphtemine is not what he lost them to)
    We are on the same page. Each of us have different opportunities and capabilities to help those in need and each of us have a responsibility to determine how much help each of us can give. Sometimes I feel that liberals who harp that it is all about lower taxes do so to avoid having to make a decision as to how much they are able to help those in need. They had rather have the gov. do it for them.

  4. #44
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    I thought this cartoon was pretty relevant to this debate, If the B word is too offensive feel free to take it down mods. But I figure this site would be the one place where people have grown accustomed to it


  5. #45
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Mudminnow,

    I like this one from the same site posted a couple of days ago.

    bin Bernake and Paul Krugman...
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  6. #46
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    Not too many major medical discoveries coming out of Canada these days. Unfortunately, doctors, researchers, and scientists tend to go where the money is. I would rather be nowhere else in the world for my health care, and I am willing to pay for it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by blind ambition View Post
    My comments are in red above.
    Unfortunately, I can't do the red thing when commenting. so my response will have to be made from memory of your comments.
    1. You complain of the complexity of the number of pages and waivers of Obama Care and blame it on the legislators. Surely you realize those who voted for it proclaimed their goal of providing "quality health care for all at an affordable cost". How can anybody object to such a noble cause when Obama Care can provide it? Well, the proof is in the pudding. 16,000 pages of rules and regulations, 2,000 waivers and it even has yet to be implemented, not to mention the projected exorbitant cost. I wonder about the level of patient anger when he(she) realizes that the doctor must code each patient as to the severity of illness that determines the level of care they are to receive. I wonder how long it will be when a patient kills a doctor because of dissatisfaction with the doctor because of it. I think you might see this as one of the ways that doctors are accused of "gaming the system". Even worse than this are those who so callously are willing to steal the individual freedoms of ALL patients and ALL doctors as to their right to choose?? Personally, I am ardently against sacrificing the individual freedoms of one individual even based on such claims that it benefits the many. In the end you only sacrifice the individual freedoms of all. Just my opinion.

    2. You are right in your concept "of billing within the system". Single employer(payer) system is based on this, and it DOES sacrifice individual freedoms of both the patient and doctor, that which I do oppose. To say that one cannot receive cosmetic treatment and a doctor cannot provide cosmetic treatment is a blatant violation of individual freedoms.

    3. when I discussed care in Japan and West Germany, I was referring to the quality of dental restoration as being far below the standard of care here in the US. From what I saw, I stand by my opinion. You state that Japan is recognized as providing a high standard of care. Personally, I care not what type of system or even the quality of care in those countries or in yours.. I do care about both in this country.

    4. One interesting point you made did make me think. You talked about the dentist that raised his fees 20% when you acquired dental insurance. I actually did the same thing but with a far different perspective than you received. I did not raise fees when one had dental insurance, I gave a 10% discount for those who paid when services were rendered and no insurance claims had to be filed. I felt that filing forms, waiting for the payment, dealing with coding mistakes ect. Refileing the forms, increased my costs at least 10% and I was passing these cost savings to the patient. I think 20% would have been high for my practice but I make no apology for charging a lessor fee for the same service that had a lower overhead cost.

    That is all that I can now remember of your comments but will check later. I have no doubt that you feel that sacrificing the individual freedoms of both the doctors and patients is justified for the "greater good". I happen to believe that you NEVER sacrifice individual freedoms for the supposedly greater good. Thanks for your response as it was informative.

  8. #48
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Unfortunately, I can't do the red thing when commenting. so my response will have to be made from memory of your comments.
    1. You complain of the complexity of the number of pages and waivers of Obama Care and blame it on the legislators. Surely you realize those who voted for it proclaimed their goal of providing "quality health care for all at an affordable cost". How can anybody object to such a noble cause when Obama Care can provide it? Well, the proof is in the pudding. 16,000 pages of rules and regulations, 2,000 waivers and it even has yet to be implemented, not to mention the projected exorbitant cost. I wonder about the level of patient anger when he(she) realizes that the doctor must code each patient as to the severity of illness that determines the level of care they are to receive. I wonder how long it will be when a patient kills a doctor because of dissatisfaction with the doctor because of it. I think you might see this as one of the ways that doctors are accused of "gaming the system". Even worse than this are those who so callously are willing to steal the individual freedoms of ALL patients and ALL doctors as to their right to choose?? Personally, I am ardently against sacrificing the individual freedoms of one individual even based on such claims that it benefits the many. In the end you only sacrifice the individual freedoms of all. Just my opinion.

    2. You are right in your concept "of billing within the system". Single employer(payer) system is based on this, and it DOES sacrifice individual freedoms of both the patient and doctor, that which I do oppose. To say that one cannot receive cosmetic treatment and a doctor cannot provide cosmetic treatment is a blatant violation of individual freedoms.

    3. when I discussed care in Japan and West Germany, I was referring to the quality of dental restoration as being far below the standard of care here in the US. From what I saw, I stand by my opinion. You state that Japan is recognized as providing a high standard of care. Personally, I care not what type of system or even the quality of care in those countries or in yours.. I do care about both in this country.

    4. One interesting point you made did make me think. You talked about the dentist that raised his fees 20% when you acquired dental insurance. I actually did the same thing but with a far different perspective than you received. I did not raise fees when one had dental insurance, I gave a 10% discount for those who paid when services were rendered and no insurance claims had to be filed. I felt that filing forms, waiting for the payment, dealing with coding mistakes ect. Refileing the forms, increased my costs at least 10% and I was passing these cost savings to the patient. I think 20% would have been high for my practice but I make no apology for charging a lessor fee for the same service that had a lower overhead cost.

    That is all that I can now remember of your comments but will check later. I have no doubt that you feel that sacrificing the individual freedoms of both the doctors and patients is justified for the "greater good". I happen to believe that you NEVER sacrifice individual freedoms for the supposedly greater good. Thanks for your response as it was informative.
    So I guess something as complicated as providing healthcare should be written on a couple pages, reading what ever the doctor wants pay it and what ever the insurance company wants to charge is fine. Oh yea, if you don't make a lot of money so you can pay the insurance premium we can't help you.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    The coming train wreck known as Healthcare.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/ca...ylist_id=87065
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  10. #50
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    The coming train wreck known as Healthcare.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/ca...ylist_id=87065
    Franco...you of all people know that these guys are not going to tell you the real truth, if it comes from the democrats it is bad. Ask yourself have you ever heard them speak positive?

    May be a train wreck but these guys don't know

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