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New to the Forum--Questionable Training Method

5K views 25 replies 17 participants last post by  FOM 
#1 ·
New to the forum

I have a well bred pup from a kennel in Nebraska that is 14 weeks old. I have started her on retrieving as well as obedience. I also have a friend that is a full time trainer of upland dogs and has produced some National Champion upland dogs. He has trained retrievers as well. He wants to start my pup now, which is fine with me, but I am cautious of his methodology and would like some opinions. He spends the first "block" teaching nothing but obedience. There is no retrieving in this block at all. In the second "block", he puts the pup on the table and starts a "conditioned retrieve" and then on to the ground, live birds, water, and etc. From there, it's on to the advanced drills.

I am a believer in his upland training methods and dogs but it seems to me that he is taking the fun out of retrieving in the beginning.

Please give me some insight or opinions on whether this format of training is a good idea.

Thanks
Eric Hill
 
#2 ·
What are your goals with the dog?

What do you mean by "National Champion upland dogs?

Generally speaking, bird dog trainers don't put much "obedience" work into dogs because it tends to inhibit their bird finding.

Spaniel trainers do a little more but typically not until the dog has been running hard and finding birds for awhile.
 
#3 ·
I am a believer in his upland training methods and dogs but it seems to me that he is taking the fun out of retrieving in the beginning.
I missed the part where he took the fun out of retrieving but read enough dog boards you'll realize a lot of people do, thinking they need to train a pup like a mini-retriever and actually do squash all the fun for 'em. But it seems fun for the trainer I guess.

Hopefully you aren't combining retrieving with your obedience?
 
#4 ·
My plan for the dog is to be a waterfowl dog. Multiple retrieves...deliver to hand....normal stuff. Eventually have her running blinds, etc.

As far as the dogs he has trained I mean such as National Derby Pointing Champion. Forgive me, but I don't want to give a lot of information about him or his dogs because I don't want any bad opinions about him formed from my post.

I have questions because his "program" removes all retrieving until she is competent in obedience.
 
#5 ·
HNTFISH...I'm not combining. Right now everything is fun. She retrieves well. Every now and then she will take off with it. I just walk away and she brings it to me. My point is that he has no concerns about her retrieving at all, but I don't want to kill her drive.
 
#6 ·
Sounds like he's focused on what needs TRAINED and relying on what momma gave her to pick up the rest. If it's a well bred dog - it won't be an issue. Too many combine the two and wipe the 'true' desire right out of the pup. Too many retrieves with rules sucks for a pup.

Think the National Champion question was...what is the designation 'National Champion?
 
#7 · (Edited)
He may not do any formal retrieves like line walk ups or steady to shot and then retrieve, but I would think that he does fun bumpers at least before and after training sessions to get the dog pumped up.
 
#9 ·
My friend and part time mentor George Wilson went from training multiple FC AFC's labs and being a National Finalist, to winning the National Shooting Dog championship a total of 4 times, the last being a couple of years ago with a GSP named Council Mountain's Buzzsaw...his dogs also have hunted pheasants for us in SoDak...good dog trainers are good dog trainers once they learn the quirks of a certain breed

If I am not mistaken, Judy Aycock was a trainer of show poodles before she got into labs
 
#15 ·
I'll be damned, just shows that not all urban myths are real...how about the story that she was a very fine tennis player in her juniors, is that true or not ?
Yes, she was an accomplished tennis player, played doubles on the women's tour briefly. She had a Shetland Sheepdog that she trained for obedience, decided she wanted a retriever and heard about this trainer in Escalon so she went to meet him and the rest, as they say, is history.
 
#18 ·
Yes, she was an accomplished tennis player, played doubles on the women's tour briefly. She had a Shetland Sheepdog that she trained for obedience, decided she wanted a retriever and heard about this trainer in Escalon so she went to meet him and the rest, as they say, is history.
Sheepdog for OB, Poodle for show... 'Ol Bon was in the general ballpark;-)
 
#11 ·
She and Rex did train horses, though, didn't they? Anyway, this individual sounds like a good trainer of pointing dogs. But if you're seeking to train a retrieving dog for waterfowl, you'll do far better using methods designed for waterfowl dogs. The goals & methods are very different.

Evan
 
#12 · (Edited)
He spends the first "block" teaching nothing but obedience. There is no retrieving in this block at all. In the second "block", he puts the pup on the table and starts a "conditioned retrieve" and then on to the ground, live birds, water, and etc. From there, it's on to the advanced drills.
Eric - JMO but since the pup is coming up on 4 months old and imagine your fun retrieves, basic OB, social shaping, exposure to water and gun, etc. have been (or will be) done by the time he has your dog...this really doesn't sound much different than most retriever programs. More like a transition to formalizing the obedience and moving to mouth habits/expectations with 'Conditioned Retriever' and then on to live birds and water work.

There's no point in training some higher aspects of the retrieve discipline unless the ability to manage that is done. I assume your buddy knows what you've done to date to prepare the pup. Frankly sounds like a pretty normal regiment for a hot pup that's 4/5 months old and the work needed thru 6/7 months.

As others have said - I'd be surprised if there weren't some fun bumpers in his mix to keep up pups good attitude.

The outline or 'blocks' were kinda thin in description. How would you do it differently?
 
#20 ·
Bill Hillman uses a lot of obedience training early. Seems to work well for his dogs?
 
#21 ·
It sounds like the old (60's) upland type training if you're running hunt tests you'll eventually get there, with a above average dog you will probably catch up for field trials. You are already starting kind of rough you should have gotten your puppy closer to 7 weeks, you've lost 7 weeks of play and socialization right off the bat. On the trainer's side getting a good foundation will definitely help advance quickly, hopefully you have enough dog to get through the mundane without a sour attitude.
 
#24 ·
As for the OP, I would say if you have questions/doubts then do a little more research on how he trains and also look at other trainers/options. Keep in mind your pup is still young and there is no reason you can't work on his OB and basic retrieving skills why you thoroughly check out the Pro you want to use (go train with him on the weekends, see if he fits you and your dog). And also ask yourself if your young pup is ready (mature enough) to start a formal training program? I'd highly suggest to wait until his adult teeth are in before sending off to a Pro because I feel there isn't much a Pro can do that you can't do until then and it saves your wallet.

FOM
 
#25 ·
Agree 100% with FOM's post; the puppy stuff isn't rocket science, it's mostly making learning fun, whether it's retrieves, recalls or basic obedience. The dog's maturity level should be the determining factor for sending him off, plus adult teeth being in. Some are mentally ready for formal obedience/FF by 5 or 6 mos., some are slower to mature and benefit from a longer time doing the play stuff. I've had ones that were ready for formal obedience at 5 mos., others not til almost a year.
 
#26 ·
My most current pup falls into this category, I sent him to my Pro at 6 months and she had me bring him back home, he just really didn't have the focus to start a formal program - at first it kind of hurt my ego, come on these are our babies, right? So I kept him while she was on her winter trip, we focused on building his desire, focus on the line and solidifying OB (sit, here, heel), well she has him now and so far is pleased with him - granted it's only been a few days, but I'll take it. Keeping him home was the BEST thing I did for him, I think now he will have a better go at learning how to be a big dog....he is behind on the timeline everyone likes to get wrapped around the axle over, but it's okay because I'm not in it for the short haul...

FOM
 
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