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"No Bird" or not?

5K views 25 replies 15 participants last post by  steve schreiner 
#1 ·
I am a fairly new judge and I have a question about a specific "NO BIRD" situation I encountered last year. It was my first go-round judging. We were running the water series Senior level. We were setup with 2 dead bird stations and the question occurred with the GO bird. That station was equipped with a "Bubba" kick-winger.(launches the bird extremely high and far)about 80 yards total with a short swim. We needed to re-bird and exchange some of the helpers before we were to continue. The memory bird station went off without a hitch. The GO bird however, only made it about 15 feet high and about 20 feet out. The cover was the same in both fall areas. I paused for a second mulling over if "No Bird" should be called. The dog appeared to mark the fall so I called their number. The dog crushed both marks (Thank You Pup!) and the blind.


In my opinion the malfunction actually made the series less difficult because of the proximity of the fall to the blind and gunner. I didn't want to send the team back to a holding blind after making it to the line, seeing the birds, and being steady. I've been there and the extra time in the holding blind waiting to run again has been absolutely nerve wrecking for me and my dog. My thought process, which may be flawed, is to save the "No Bird" for the falls that put the dog in a considerably tougher scenario. Just looking for some opinions and some advice.
 
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#3 ·
The dog saw the mark. The mark fell in the same type of cover that the intended throw would have. You made the correct call.

Lonnie Spann
 
#6 ·
"In my opinion the malfunction actually made the series less difficult because of the proximity of the fall to the blind and gunner"

If you consider giving the same test to all the dogs and how marks influence blinds, then I would have called a No Bird because the area of the fall of this mark was considerably different even though the cover was the same. It seems you answered your own question in this quote from your original post.
 
#7 ·
Different test with the malfuction. A no bird would have been my call.

And the arguement of " flyers don't land in the same spot" doesn't work, because all dogs running would see a flyer. In this case, they saw 2 control birds, and one was not the same as the others.

JMO
 
#9 ·
You were not alone, your co-judge let the test continue also, did you discuss it afterwards? Next time you judge try to work out ahead of time what the area of the fall is to be and where you would call a "no bird". It is impossible to agree with or criticize your call without a photo or sketch of the test but your desire to subject yourself to peer review is commendable.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Since hunt test judge dogs against a standard, as long as you and you co-judge felt the test met the standard, unlike field trials it really doesn't need to be the same for each dog. I usually have the no-bird discussion with my judge on set-up day.

We usually agree that either judge can make the no-bird call, and we discuss what the boundaries are, what a no-bird would be. You don't want to be caught flat footed. It has been my experience that calling no-bird can screw a dog up as much as not calling no-bird, so unless it is really an unfair bird, I try to hold off. I also try to set the flyer up so that there is a nice large area that works well no matter where the bird falls.

I think you made a good call.

John
 
#11 ·
Senior HT, 2 controlled birds, 1 blind.
Shift change in workers, someone strung the winger top/top instead of bottom/bottom. It changes my test because the AOF changes significantly. A flyer isn't in this picture.
If we are testing to a STANDARD, than my test should be as consistent as possible (wet hens and drakes considered).
We set up this test to challenge dogs, not get weepy willy because of "been there" emotions.
I work a few HT and FT's, I'm clear on stating I can't throw a consistent bird because of a shoulder issue, who wants me to throw a Key Bird for them? A winger is a different story.
 
#16 ·
What kind of winger will throw a bird 80 yards?
 
#21 ·
The "rules" provide guidance for what iisn't a "no bird". Look starting on page 35 "Unusual circumstances, No Birds". Collapsing it down to a single sentence would yield something like "If the concept of the test is changed or the bird is not retrievable, it is a no bird." The rules section goes over several instances trying to point out that either judge can call it (doesn't take both) or what to do if you have one. However, there isn't any black letter law on what constitutes a "no bird".

If you felt that the bird was retrieveable and was not substantially different from others, let it go. The rules are very clear about each dog not needing to see the same test. What they do say is that the test each dog sees must be within the standard. Thus, distance may not make any difference if the cover is the same and the dog was able to see it, etc.

From your description in letters and characters, I'd say you made a good call.

Not so much in Jr but in Sr and Mstr, my co-jodge and I discuss no birds before the test, even to the extent of instances of what will and won't be a no bird.
 
#22 ·
Tbro-
I remember that scenario (and no, it wasn't my dog). I think you made the right call. It was the "go bird", dog saw it, cover really wasn't a factor, it was steady, and handled the angled water entry just fine. I don't think you would have accomplished anything by calling a "no bird". I bet you'll be ready for that kind of stuff next time! See you this weekend buddy!
 
#23 ·
I paused for a second mulling over if "No Bird" should be called. The dog appeared to mark the fall so I called their number. The dog crushed both marks (Thank You Pup!) and the blind.
I wasn't there, so I do not mean to be critical.

When I judge, if I think - even for an instant - that there is an issue about the bird being a "no bird" - I call it. And I do so without reference to what I think the dog did or did not see. Part of this is experience, because there have times, I waited and was wrong. Whether a bird is a no bird or not, should not depend on how the dog performed, but rather on your opinion - before the dog is sent - that for whatever reason, the bird is unfair.
 
#24 ·
Unless what happened was unfair to the dog/handler team I would not have called it. It is not their fault that the mark did not go out as planned and they marked what you threw. Having to go back three dogs after seeing one of the marks is not fun. If the dog had broke his next time to the line would you also be willing to say...well maybe we should give you another chance? Also, if you call No Bird on every one that does not fall perfectly where you wanted it you are gonna be in for some very long days. Kudos for trying to do it right but sometimes no matter what you do........something happens to make it less than perfect.
 
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