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Thread: "Not Going" is Frustrating

  1. #21
    Senior Member kjrice's Avatar
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    Most of the time an issue that "just happens" is usually due to something we have done - realized or not. Methodically work it out and maintain balance.
    A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjrice View Post
    Most of the time an issue that "just happens" is usually due to something we have done - realized or not. Methodically work it out and maintain balance.
    Very true...some times inadvertently caused ...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  3. #23
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    May want to record your routine when setting up for blinds. Perhaps you are inadvertently creating stress for him and this is the result. Maybe change it up some.

    /paul
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  4. #24
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    The cause could be a lot of different things. Sounds like you are open to suggestion and are willing to try almost anything. This is a solution that would definitely fall into the category of unorthodox or creative. Assuming that you don't feel that the no go is a result of confusion or overuse of pressure, try this. Water force again with the stick fetch method. When your dog gets the concept down pretty well, have two buddies sit behind you in chairs with the stick hidden. If you get a no go have them reenforce with the stick. That way you avoid the dog getting collar wise for the test. He will never know when the judge is gonna pull that damn stick out! It's an old school method that I have no idea if it will work or not but what have you got to lose?

  5. #25
    Member RReeter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marshall View Post
    The cause could be a lot of different things. Sounds like you are open to suggestion and are willing to try almost anything. This is a solution that would definitely fall into the category of unorthodox or creative. Assuming that you don't feel that the no go is a result of confusion or overuse of pressure, try this. Water force again with the stick fetch method. When your dog gets the concept down pretty well, have two buddies sit behind you in chairs with the stick hidden. If you get a no go have them reenforce with the stick. That way you avoid the dog getting collar wise for the test. He will never know when the judge is gonna pull that damn stick out! It's an old school method that I have no idea if it will work or not but what have you got to lose?
    Thanks Tony, that is sort of what we did when we simulated a hunt with the club.. He no-goed and the judges got him. It lasted a week... Wish we could simulate a test day for about a week, I think it would work...

  6. #26
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    I have to comment in general - and not specific to this dog not knowing the back ground or training. I am probably the contrarian in this discussion but there are two things that IMO are most always caused by pressure - sticking & no-going. In either case it may not be direct pressure. So I would be very careful using pressure to solve the problem (that would include caution with revisiting pile drills). As relates to no-going, it can also be confusion & you have to always follow the same routine & not rush a dog when running a blind (which a handler might do at an event due to nerves & get too fast) to eliminate confusion as a possible cause. Assuming that confusion is not the cause with a dog that has shown he will no-go, I would develop a very methodical routine & look very intently for a dog's cues or reactions just before a send when it is successful. These might be very insignificant cues, it may be an expression on the dog's face, a lean toward the line to be taken, etc. And don't send your dog until you see your dog communicate that he will go by the expression of the cue he shows when he does go in training.

    I mentioned pressure as a cause. It may be indirect pressure. It may be that a dog doesn't really like water blinds & his natural inclination is to avoid them. However, the dog's training may be such that the dog chooses to go in training rather than be punished for not going. So again, I would be very careful with the use of pressure to correct a no-going issue, it may make it worse. The real cure will come in finding a way to improve the dog's desire to run a water blind. You can help with your methodical approach to preparing the dog to go when sent, make him at ease, relaxed, that nothing negative is going to happen. So you have to find a way for your dog to be rewarded beyond the normal reward of retrieving a bird at the end of a blind. Not easy & probably unique to each dog but no-going can end a career of HTs or FTs so it is worth the effort.
    David Didier, GA

  7. #27
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Very interesting and well worth considering! Thank you David
    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    I have to comment in general - and not specific to this dog not knowing the back ground or training. I am probably the contrarian in this discussion but there are two things that IMO are most always caused by pressure - sticking & no-going. In either case it may not be direct pressure. So I would be very careful using pressure to solve the problem (that would include caution with revisiting pile drills). As relates to no-going, it can also be confusion & you have to always follow the same routine & not rush a dog when running a blind (which a handler might do at an event due to nerves & get too fast) to eliminate confusion as a possible cause. Assuming that confusion is not the cause with a dog that has shown he will no-go, I would develop a very methodical routine & look very intently for a dog's cues or reactions just before a send when it is successful. These might be very insignificant cues, it may be an expression on the dog's face, a lean toward the line to be taken, etc. And don't send your dog until you see your dog communicate that he will go by the expression of the cue he shows when he does go in training.

    I mentioned pressure as a cause. It may be indirect pressure. It may be that a dog doesn't really like water blinds & his natural inclination is to avoid them. However, the dog's training may be such that the dog chooses to go in training rather than be punished for not going. So again, I would be very careful with the use of pressure to correct a no-going issue, it may make it worse. The real cure will come in finding a way to improve the dog's desire to run a water blind. You can help with your methodical approach to preparing the dog to go when sent, make him at ease, relaxed, that nothing negative is going to happen. So you have to find a way for your dog to be rewarded beyond the normal reward of retrieving a bird at the end of a blind. Not easy & probably unique to each dog but no-going can end a career of HTs or FTs so it is worth the effort.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Richard Finch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    Next time at a test, just before you run the water blind, go off grounds and force dog to a back pile on land a few times using e-collar.
    He should go pretty good when you run the h2o blind.

    My thoughts exactly...


    Richard
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Finch View Post
    My thoughts exactly...


    Richard
    Going off grounds and forcing may work for a while but probably not a fix...dogs will get wise to this trick too...I know of a dog that wouldn't get out of the truck when it went to the woods...It knew what was coming...Things don't always carry over like we want them too...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #30
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    I have to comment in general - and not specific to this dog not knowing the back ground or training. I am probably the contrarian in this discussion but there are two things that IMO are most always caused by pressure - sticking & no-going. In either case it may not be direct pressure. So I would be very careful using pressure to solve the problem (that would include caution with revisiting pile drills). As relates to no-going, it can also be confusion & you have to always follow the same routine & not rush a dog when running a blind (which a handler might do at an event due to nerves & get too fast) to eliminate confusion as a possible cause. Assuming that confusion is not the cause with a dog that has shown he will no-go, I would develop a very methodical routine & look very intently for a dog's cues or reactions just before a send when it is successful. These might be very insignificant cues, it may be an expression on the dog's face, a lean toward the line to be taken, etc. And don't send your dog until you see your dog communicate that he will go by the expression of the cue he shows when he does go in training.

    I mentioned pressure as a cause. It may be indirect pressure. It may be that a dog doesn't really like water blinds & his natural inclination is to avoid them. However, the dog's training may be such that the dog chooses to go in training rather than be punished for not going. So again, I would be very careful with the use of pressure to correct a no-going issue, it may make it worse. The real cure will come in finding a way to improve the dog's desire to run a water blind. You can help with your methodical approach to preparing the dog to go when sent, make him at ease, relaxed, that nothing negative is going to happen. So you have to find a way for your dog to be rewarded beyond the normal reward of retrieving a bird at the end of a blind. Not easy & probably unique to each dog but no-going can end a career of HTs or FTs so it is worth the effort.
    .
    .
    Maybe my suggestion needed a caution note....
    .
    .
    For a different reward to jazz a dog up us a pop up bird launcher at the end of your blind and launch a shackled bird as dog gets near. Go nuts.
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    .
    Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni.
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