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"Not Going" is Frustrating

10K views 46 replies 20 participants last post by  Bridget Bodine 
#1 ·
I have used this area of RTF in the past with great success, and I hope I can get the same results with this issue I currently have with my retriever. Here we go: I have a very high spirited, hard charging, creeping/breaking lab which has been running fantastic, in fact he went 6 for 6 in AKC Master Test to earn his MH Title. Then all of a sudden on a cold day in Tulsa running a Master test, he decided to no go me on a water mark, I thought very strange this dog will break through anything to get a mark. By the way, he needs one more test to qualify for Master National. So the next test comes around, he does a great job through out the entire test until we get to third series (water test) last bird (water blind) and he "no goes" me again. This happens two more times same thing "no goes" on the water blind. He does not have a problem on water marks, charges right into water and front foots most of the marks.. Land blinds are no problem.. When we train he will run every blind water blind we give him with no issues, so we can't get any corrections. We just ran the HOT Master Test this last weekend, same results, did a great job through the entire test, came down to a double water blind, and he did not go. Very Very Very Frustrating..

I am lost for what to do... My thoughts now are not to run him during the winter test season and I plan on hunting the heck out of him this winter, with every bird down run as a blind... My thinking is let him have some fun, see what hunting is really like, since he has never really hunted, and get a lot of blind training in. Any comments, ideas or suggestion.. In addition to hunting I was going to put him in the backyard this summer and just let him play.

Appreciate any help, assistance or suggestions.
 
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#3 ·
I have used this area of RTF in the past with great success, and I hope I can get the same results with this issue I currently have with my retriever. Here we go: I have a very high spirited, hard charging, creeping/breaking lab which has been running fantastic, in fact he went 6 for 6 in AKC Master Test to earn his MH Title. Then all of a sudden on a cold day in Tulsa running a Master test, he decided to no go me on a water mark, I thought very strange this dog will break through anything to get a mark. By the way, he needs one more test to qualify for Master National. So the next test comes around, he does a great job through out the entire test until we get to third series (water test) last bird (water blind) and he "no goes" me again. This happens two more times same thing "no goes" on the water blind. He does not have a problem on water marks, charges right into water and front foots most of the marks.. Land blinds are no problem.. When we train he will run every blind water blind we give him with no issues, so we can't get any corrections. We just ran the HOT Master Test this last weekend, same results, did a great job through the entire test, came down to a double water blind, and he did not go. Very Very Very Frustrating..

I am lost for what to do... My thoughts now are not to run him during the winter test season and I plan on hunting the heck out of him this winter, with every bird down run as a blind... My thinking is let him have some fun, see what hunting is really like, since he has never really hunted, and get a lot of blind training in. Any comments, ideas or suggestion.. In addition to hunting I was going to put him in the backyard this summer and just let him play.

Appreciate any help, assistance or suggestions.
Sounds like the dog is trial wise to me. Lardy says it only takes 2 trials to make a dog trial wise. ;)

I also taught one that she didn't have to run a water blinds at trials. It's not hard to do. However, it can be a very tough problem to fix. I got mine "fixed" for a few years. It showed up again when she was 10, and I retired her.

Certainly, Don't run any more tests or trials before this is fixed!
 
#4 ·
Would like some more back ground info , please..Has he been through a typical training program ..? Has he been forced with the collar on water or swim by ? I assume he wears a collar during training ..And.. that is the difference on test day ? Any thing happen that was unusual the first time he no-goed at the event..? On this last double blind ,did the no-go occur on the first or second blind..? Steve S
 
#5 ·
Review water T , force to water to a pile (very important to do this review) and then set up some blinds , first, if he does not go heel,nick , heel, moving forward , if he still does not go, force to water
 
#7 ·
Thank you Steve, Here is the additional information: Yes he went through the typical training program and is forced to back pile and on water. Yes he has done swim by.. No he doesn't wear a collar everyday during training, maybe twice a week. The first time he no-goed was on a mark at the Tulsa Master test water series, it was very cold even snowed a bit. The land blind at the same test he lined the first one and 2 whistled the second.. What was strange his first no-go was on a mark, in which he never failed to go on a mark, be it training, HRC test, AKC test or field trial. And at the last test, it was the first blind when he didn't go.. and smashed the marks the first being a long swim, and the temp was in the mid 70's.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Thank you Steve, Here is the additional information: Yes he went through the typical training program and is forced to back pile and on water. Yes he has done swim by.. No he doesn't wear a collar everyday during training, maybe twice a week. The first time he no-goed was on a mark at the Tulsa Master test water series, it was very cold even snowed a bit. The land blind at the same test he lined the first one and 2 whistled the second.. What was strange his first no-go was on a mark, in which he never failed to go on a mark, be it training, HRC test, AKC test or field trial. And at the last test, it was the first blind when he didn't go.. and smashed the marks the first being a long swim, and the temp was in the mid 70's.
Why do you work only part time with a collar on the dog ...? Do you feel the weather may have been the trigger in first no-go ...? A review WITH pressure is my advice too..How ever you did your water force...There is a time for a command to be reinforced ... You don't have to wait until you get the refusal... All commands will eventually loose their effectiveness if there is not some reinforcement along the way..If you with hold the treat for enough reps the dog will soon refuse to do the command ....The old sign " will work for food" says a lot....I feel most collar trainers don't have a maintenance program ...They just wait until a correction is needed and then apply the heat...Here is a short story ....A friend calls and ask about his dog breaking during a hunt....8 times in a row....no collar on because of hunting ....He had to shoot 17 or 18 flyers before she broke again and he got a correction in ....He can't afford that kind of training. ...I recommended just stimulation on every sit command he gave ...Walking and at the line when doing marks ...After a couple of days training there was no problem at the next hunt....reinforcement of a command is a must ....Steve S


" In addition to hunting I was going to put him in the backyard this summer and just let him play." PS:I would run water blinds as often as I could...Any kind and any length,some short and simple..always cold....never repeat...run from the other end if possible..You get two for one that away...Steve S
 
#8 ·
Thank you Bridget, I will review T, and back pile, and like I originally mentioned, during training he normally runs good blinds, both land and water, that is the frustrating part I can't get the correction.. I wish there was a way (I know it isn't allowed) I could run by-dog at a test so maybe I could the correction. As Doug mentioned I think he is just test wise and that is why I thought maybe hunting him for a season without running test would help..
 
#9 ·
Additional information: My dog is 4 1/2 years old and has been running nothing but HRC Finished test, AKC Master Test, AKC Quals and Derbys.. His line manners at a test are very loose in that he creeps almost every mark and has to be re-heeled.. He is full of energy and is very explosive. Except for blinds, he has never really liked blind but he always ran them until Tulsa..
 
#10 ·
Next time at a test, just before you run the water blind, go off grounds and force dog to a back pile on land a few times using e-collar.
He should go pretty good when you run the h2o blind.
 
#14 ·
Very interesting story Steve. Do you think that would also work with a bitch that has decided to be sticky delivering the last bird of multiple retrieves in trials only? Could give the hold command with a nick for birds and bumpers? This is a fully trained 8 /2 year old that is going a bit senile on me!
 
#15 · (Edited)
that is hard to say ...A trial wise dog is a very difficult critter to deal with ....If you didn't run trials for some time and the dog developed the habit of releasing with a reinforcement expectation there may be some carry over for a short duration of time ...May never completely ( reprogram ) the dog...It all depends on how strong the habit has become engrained...I would try making the dog hold the bird for long period of time in training to see if it would finally want to give it up on its own...Then force a hold or fetch...Let the dog learn on its own that holding that bird can get boring....and tiresome...Here again the situation is different than at a trial....I would be interested in the out come of your efforts...Steve S


" Could give the hold command with a nick for birds and bumpers?" I am confused here...I would be giving a drop or leave it command and stimulation to get the release...Hard stimulation, make an impression...Dog may refuse to pick it back up when commanded ...now you will see how much fetch you have in the dog...If pressure is necessary do it ...balance ....too much leave it='s not enough fetch ...too much fetch ='s not enough leave it .....Steve S
 
#20 ·
Paul, for the most part he runs water blinds pretty good, sometimes we use the collar and then we won't use the collar.. We have started using a new cue word "keyword". We always used "Dead Bird - Good - Back" we changed it to "Blind - Back" and for now he looks out more on the word "Blind".. We will keep trying. Thanks
 
#24 ·
The cause could be a lot of different things. Sounds like you are open to suggestion and are willing to try almost anything. This is a solution that would definitely fall into the category of unorthodox or creative. Assuming that you don't feel that the no go is a result of confusion or overuse of pressure, try this. Water force again with the stick fetch method. When your dog gets the concept down pretty well, have two buddies sit behind you in chairs with the stick hidden. If you get a no go have them reenforce with the stick. That way you avoid the dog getting collar wise for the test. He will never know when the judge is gonna pull that damn stick out! It's an old school method that I have no idea if it will work or not but what have you got to lose?
 
#26 ·
I have to comment in general - and not specific to this dog not knowing the back ground or training. I am probably the contrarian in this discussion but there are two things that IMO are most always caused by pressure - sticking & no-going. In either case it may not be direct pressure. So I would be very careful using pressure to solve the problem (that would include caution with revisiting pile drills). As relates to no-going, it can also be confusion & you have to always follow the same routine & not rush a dog when running a blind (which a handler might do at an event due to nerves & get too fast) to eliminate confusion as a possible cause. Assuming that confusion is not the cause with a dog that has shown he will no-go, I would develop a very methodical routine & look very intently for a dog's cues or reactions just before a send when it is successful. These might be very insignificant cues, it may be an expression on the dog's face, a lean toward the line to be taken, etc. And don't send your dog until you see your dog communicate that he will go by the expression of the cue he shows when he does go in training.

I mentioned pressure as a cause. It may be indirect pressure. It may be that a dog doesn't really like water blinds & his natural inclination is to avoid them. However, the dog's training may be such that the dog chooses to go in training rather than be punished for not going. So again, I would be very careful with the use of pressure to correct a no-going issue, it may make it worse. The real cure will come in finding a way to improve the dog's desire to run a water blind. You can help with your methodical approach to preparing the dog to go when sent, make him at ease, relaxed, that nothing negative is going to happen. So you have to find a way for your dog to be rewarded beyond the normal reward of retrieving a bird at the end of a blind. Not easy & probably unique to each dog but no-going can end a career of HTs or FTs so it is worth the effort.
 
#27 ·
Very interesting and well worth considering! Thank you David
 
#31 ·
when I was first exposed to the sport as a teen I stumbled upon an old time trainer "lighting up" their dog before a test. I vividly remember being told "..get out of here kid, nothing for you to see here"...I didnt realize then what they were doing until I asked about it to a more knowledgeable source..the thought of it was actually disgusting, I am not naive enough to think that that practice still doesnt exist in the far off fields away from the FT grounds, but if you have to resort to those methods to get the dog in gear .....not my cup of tea
 
#32 ·
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Not something to do all the time but if you've been seeing a problem and the dog spanked the marks and land blind, I may try any number of things including forcing to a short pile a few times just to get in a correction, nothing major. I wouldn't be doing the old school "light em up" either.
 
#33 ·
Right , forcing to a pile has nothing to do with a dog screaming and yowling while running to shut the pressure off. Forcing to a pile could be with a stick, could be with a #2 nick....I am pretty sure Bon, if you were to see me force to a pile on water , you would not walk away disgusted.
 
#34 ·
please keep the time frame in its proper context..in '72 the most E collars had two buttons and one of them was an off button....I now know the difference between the heavy handed and the not so heavy handed, heck I train with them, some are even my friends, even though they may not care to admit it...seen lots of tricks of the trade to get a dog up before a test, some are quite clever, a few bordering on brilliant...Heard numerous stories on what Mr Belmont would do with Soupy prior to and in between tests..but then he probably had the resources to recreate the test at the drop of a hat
 
#35 ·
I have used this area of RTF in the past with great success, and I hope I can get the same results with this issue I currently have with my retriever. Here we go: I have a very high spirited, hard charging, creeping/breaking lab which has been running fantastic, in fact he went 6 for 6 in AKC Master Test to earn his MH Title. Then all of a sudden on a cold day in Tulsa running a Master test, he decided to no go me on a water mark, I thought very strange this dog will break through anything to get a mark. By the way, he needs one more test to qualify for Master National. So the next test comes around, he does a great job through out the entire test until we get to third series (water test) last bird (water blind) and he "no goes" me again. This happens two more times same thing "no goes" on the water blind. He does not have a problem on water marks, charges right into water and front foots most of the marks.. Land blinds are no problem.. When we train he will run every blind water blind we give him with no issues, so we can't get any corrections. We just ran the HOT Master Test this last weekend, same results, did a great job through the entire test, came down to a double water blind, and he did not go. Very Very Very Frustrating..

I am lost for what to do... My thoughts now are not to run him during the winter test season and I plan on hunting the heck out of him this winter, with every bird down run as a blind... My thinking is let him have some fun, see what hunting is really like, since he has never really hunted, and get a lot of blind training in. Any comments, ideas or suggestion.. In addition to hunting I was going to put him in the backyard this summer and just let him play.

Appreciate any help, assistance or suggestions.
Confused!..after all the expert advice on here?....
Not with the dogs behaviour!..
 
#36 ·
Not yet, and I have actually initiated some of the advise with good results, but this is still training. I have changed the cue word to "Blind" instead of "Deadbird", did some maintenance type pile work, seven bumper drill across water, and started giving him treats when he returns from water blinds only. I won't give up on him and we will keep plugging along until we get it right.. Thanks to all for the information and if you think of anything else please let me know..
 
#37 ·
My oldest dog Shelby did this same thing. She was the first dog I ever owned and trained and we failed 4 senior tests in a row because she no go'd the water blind. She was awesome for the first three series and then the water blind came and she would just sit there. It was so frustrating. Thankfully some people I knew decided we should mock a test and when I ran her on the water blind and she did not go, these people came out of the woodwork with large branches and scared the crap out of her and she went. (At the time I didn't own a e collar). She never did that again and she got her senior title. I would say run him in as many mock tests as you can before your real one, without a collar, because you want it to simulate the real deal(he may be collar wise and test wise), and if he no go's, use other means of force to get him to the blind. Even if it means you have to ear pinch and swim him there! I have seen that happen before! Good luck and don't give up!
 
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