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Thread: "Not Going" is Frustrating

  1. #31
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    when I was first exposed to the sport as a teen I stumbled upon an old time trainer "lighting up" their dog before a test. I vividly remember being told "..get out of here kid, nothing for you to see here"...I didnt realize then what they were doing until I asked about it to a more knowledgeable source..the thought of it was actually disgusting, I am not naive enough to think that that practice still doesnt exist in the far off fields away from the FT grounds, but if you have to resort to those methods to get the dog in gear .....not my cup of tea
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    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  2. #32
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    when I was first exposed to the sport as a teen I stumbled upon an old time trainer "lighting up" their dog before a test. I vividly remember being told "..get out of here kid, nothing for you to see here"...I didnt realize then what they were doing until I asked about it to a more knowledgeable source..the thought of it was actually disgusting, I am not naive enough to think that that practice still doesnt exist in the far off fields away from the FT grounds, but if you have to resort to those methods to get the dog in gear .....not my cup of tea
    .
    .
    Not something to do all the time but if you've been seeing a problem and the dog spanked the marks and land blind, I may try any number of things including forcing to a short pile a few times just to get in a correction, nothing major. I wouldn't be doing the old school "light em up" either.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Right , forcing to a pile has nothing to do with a dog screaming and yowling while running to shut the pressure off. Forcing to a pile could be with a stick, could be with a #2 nick....I am pretty sure Bon, if you were to see me force to a pile on water , you would not walk away disgusted.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget Bodine View Post
    Right , forcing to a pile has nothing to do with a dog screaming and yowling while running to shut the pressure off. Forcing to a pile could be with a stick, could be with a #2 nick....I am pretty sure Bon, if you were to see me force to a pile on water , you would not walk away disgusted.

    please keep the time frame in its proper context..in '72 the most E collars had two buttons and one of them was an off button....I now know the difference between the heavy handed and the not so heavy handed, heck I train with them, some are even my friends, even though they may not care to admit it...seen lots of tricks of the trade to get a dog up before a test, some are quite clever, a few bordering on brilliant...Heard numerous stories on what Mr Belmont would do with Soupy prior to and in between tests..but then he probably had the resources to recreate the test at the drop of a hat
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  5. #35
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RReeter View Post
    I have used this area of RTF in the past with great success, and I hope I can get the same results with this issue I currently have with my retriever. Here we go: I have a very high spirited, hard charging, creeping/breaking lab which has been running fantastic, in fact he went 6 for 6 in AKC Master Test to earn his MH Title. Then all of a sudden on a cold day in Tulsa running a Master test, he decided to no go me on a water mark, I thought very strange this dog will break through anything to get a mark. By the way, he needs one more test to qualify for Master National. So the next test comes around, he does a great job through out the entire test until we get to third series (water test) last bird (water blind) and he "no goes" me again. This happens two more times same thing "no goes" on the water blind. He does not have a problem on water marks, charges right into water and front foots most of the marks.. Land blinds are no problem.. When we train he will run every blind water blind we give him with no issues, so we can't get any corrections. We just ran the HOT Master Test this last weekend, same results, did a great job through the entire test, came down to a double water blind, and he did not go. Very Very Very Frustrating..

    I am lost for what to do... My thoughts now are not to run him during the winter test season and I plan on hunting the heck out of him this winter, with every bird down run as a blind... My thinking is let him have some fun, see what hunting is really like, since he has never really hunted, and get a lot of blind training in. Any comments, ideas or suggestion.. In addition to hunting I was going to put him in the backyard this summer and just let him play.

    Appreciate any help, assistance or suggestions.
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  6. #36
    Member RReeter's Avatar
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    Not yet, and I have actually initiated some of the advise with good results, but this is still training. I have changed the cue word to "Blind" instead of "Deadbird", did some maintenance type pile work, seven bumper drill across water, and started giving him treats when he returns from water blinds only. I won't give up on him and we will keep plugging along until we get it right.. Thanks to all for the information and if you think of anything else please let me know..

  7. #37
    Member Lauren Koch's Avatar
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    My oldest dog Shelby did this same thing. She was the first dog I ever owned and trained and we failed 4 senior tests in a row because she no go'd the water blind. She was awesome for the first three series and then the water blind came and she would just sit there. It was so frustrating. Thankfully some people I knew decided we should mock a test and when I ran her on the water blind and she did not go, these people came out of the woodwork with large branches and scared the crap out of her and she went. (At the time I didn't own a e collar). She never did that again and she got her senior title. I would say run him in as many mock tests as you can before your real one, without a collar, because you want it to simulate the real deal(he may be collar wise and test wise), and if he no go's, use other means of force to get him to the blind. Even if it means you have to ear pinch and swim him there! I have seen that happen before! Good luck and don't give up!
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  8. #38
    Member RReeter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Koch View Post
    My oldest dog Shelby did this same thing. She was the first dog I ever owned and trained and we failed 4 senior tests in a row because she no go'd the water blind. She was awesome for the first three series and then the water blind came and she would just sit there. It was so frustrating. Thankfully some people I knew decided we should mock a test and when I ran her on the water blind and she did not go, these people came out of the woodwork with large branches and scared the crap out of her and she went. (At the time I didn't own a e collar). She never did that again and she got her senior title. I would say run him in as many mock tests as you can before your real one, without a collar, because you want it to simulate the real deal(he may be collar wise and test wise), and if he no go's, use other means of force to get him to the blind. Even if it means you have to ear pinch and swim him there! I have seen that happen before! Good luck and don't give up!
    Thank you Lauren, hopefully I won't have to do any swimming while pinching an ear.. And I won't give up, Love the boy too much.. We will just do marks and land blinds.. Thank you again

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    I have to comment in general - and not specific to this dog not knowing the back ground or training. I am probably the contrarian in this discussion but there are two things that IMO are most always caused by pressure - sticking & no-going. In either case it may not be direct pressure. So I would be very careful using pressure to solve the problem (that would include caution with revisiting pile drills). As relates to no-going, it can also be confusion & you have to always follow the same routine & not rush a dog when running a blind (which a handler might do at an event due to nerves & get too fast) to eliminate confusion as a possible cause. Assuming that confusion is not the cause with a dog that has shown he will no-go, I would develop a very methodical routine & look very intently for a dog's cues or reactions just before a send when it is successful. These might be very insignificant cues, it may be an expression on the dog's face, a lean toward the line to be taken, etc. And don't send your dog until you see your dog communicate that he will go by the expression of the cue he shows when he does go in training.

    I mentioned pressure as a cause. It may be indirect pressure. It may be that a dog doesn't really like water blinds & his natural inclination is to avoid them. However, the dog's training may be such that the dog chooses to go in training rather than be punished for not going. So again, I would be very careful with the use of pressure to correct a no-going issue, it may make it worse. The real cure will come in finding a way to improve the dog's desire to run a water blind. You can help with your methodical approach to preparing the dog to go when sent, make him at ease, relaxed, that nothing negative is going to happen. So you have to find a way for your dog to be rewarded beyond the normal reward of retrieving a bird at the end of a blind. Not easy & probably unique to each dog but no-going can end a career of HTs or FTs so it is worth the effort.
    This is a really good response. As I was reading the original post I immediately thought collar pressure. Try to figure out why the issue has occurred and then work from there. Don`t use pressure. I have seen fellows try to help a dog that has been under severe collar pressure and it is not fun to watch. It takes a long time to rehabilitate if they succeed! Some dogs can take the pressure; some cannot! Work it through and good luck!
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RReeter View Post
    Thanks Tony, that is sort of what we did when we simulated a hunt with the club.. He no-goed and the judges got him. It lasted a week... Wish we could simulate a test day for about a week, I think it would work...
    Ask your self why did it work ..? Do you use direct pressure on back or indirect on heel step forward and repeat sit..? I seldom use direct pressure once I have finished swim-by....Did you do a lot of back cast from a front sit when you did swim-by?...What about force in route ? If the reason is caused by lack of desire for water blinds as Granddaddy suggested, you need to make them fun for the dog ...big rewards for simple effort...We exploit their desire to retrieve and add pressure to reinforce behaviors... Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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