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"The Smell of Fear"... Or, "The Smell of Trials" Adrenaline and its impact on dogs

30K views 106 replies 64 participants last post by  Steve Shaver 
#1 ·
"The Smell of Fear"... Or, "The Smell of Trials" Adrenaline and its impact on dogs

The topic of heeling, or lack of it at a test or trial has caused me to create a new topic. This is the smell of a trial - and why it has such a bearing on how our dogs behave at a trial.

How many times have you heard, or read that "Dogs can smell fear"? Do you believe it?

How many times have you observed, when you pulled your vehicle up to a test or trial in progress, that your dogs could sense it, immediately? How do you think they know it?

Here's my belief: If we were to take an experienced Field Trial or Hunt Test dog, who knows the excitement of fliers, live guns, Field Trial Poppers, marks, holding blinds, judges yelling "guns up", etc. and turn off their eyes and ears, they would KNOW they were at a Field Trial the moment we pulled the vehicle into the scent cone of the event. I'm totally convinced of it. If these dogs suddenly became deaf and blind, and were transported to a trial, they would KNOW it by scent alone.

A Field Trial atmosphere, to a dog, smells like a total soup of awesome scents that our dogs associate with the ecstasy of a Trial atmosphere. There's spent gunpowder and all that. But more importantly, there's the scent of adrenaline and other associated scents that other dogs AND their human counterparts, emit when they are under stress or excitement.

I've had the luxury and benefit over the past few years of training with, hanging out with and observing K9 Law Enforcement guys. Around here, these guys will use the same dog (frequently a Belgian Malanoit) for: bite work, substance detection, article search and tracking. These are all associated and similar tasks, yet with their own unique nuances that make them separate and require specific training.

One thing that these dogs learn quickly is how to smell "fear" or adrenaline in a "street" situation. It is likened to how our dogs quickly learn to discriminate between shot birds and non-shot birds, or how they quickly learn to associate awesomeness with the smell of a shot flyer station.

At first, I was confused as to how a trained tracking malanoit could walk through a crowded festival and track the scent of a badguy who just ran from a stolen car, through a huge group of people. How can this dog follow the scent of this one bad guy, while there are other people ALL OVER the place?

The reason, of course, is that this badguy is emitting all sorts of unique scents from his body that smell totally different from the calm, happy, innocent people that share the same space as him. Adrenaline, sweat, and other chemicals or hormonal secretions are all causing this bad guy to give off a scent that to a K9's nose, is like an olfactory neon sign!

I have no scientific proof and no studies to point to. But I believe it is logical and totally accurate that our dogs give off the same sorts of chemical scent signatures when they are excited, pumped up, charged go get a bird, etc. Not only that, but that crate of fliers...those stressed mallards that are getting popped at the flyer station...same deal. They are giving off all sorts of incredible scent. And to take it further, the nervous handlers who are stumbling, fumbling and trying to remember to breathe and not screw up....they too are giving off their own scent, much different from that of a calmer person training in a training atmosphere.

It is so hard, no matter how much we yell, play recordings, plant fake judges or put out holding blinds to truly mimic a trial atmosphere. A big reason for this is the scent of a trial.

I believe this is a major factor in the "Bohn Principle" that is being implemented by East Coast Trainer Randy Bohn to rehab maniac field trial dogs BACK into tractable field competitors - for the pro AND for their handler. The whole thing, I believe, is the maintenance of a standard in varied conditions. I read recently, as someone put it, that if a dog "gets away" with a behavior 3 times, we have just inadvertently trained that dog to do that behavior. This makes sense to me.

So if we allow an obedience standard to slip, in an atmosphere where there's a whole soup of scent, among other special situational differences between this setting and our more common standard training settings, we are essentially training that dog that the standard is out the window.

I don't have the answer. I think I have some clue. I think Field Trial settings, to a dog, are a neon sign of scent that can make their brains go haywire if we don't gradually introduce distractions while maintaining a standard. --- Easier said than done perhaps.

Good training, Chris
 
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#71 ·
This goes back to my post in that thread. Funny how that works.
i can personally attest to the fear smell and my Belgian Malinios. Well actually, all the Malays and gsd's I've worked. I mainly speak of my current Malloy cause we spent the most time together with the most successful finds and apprehensions.

when we track for training he's "good" cause he enjoys it.

i remember a specific time we were tracking for a robbery suspect who fled from a stolen car after wrapping it around a pole during a pursuit. My dogs tracking was the best I have ever seen. Nose to the ground with minimal casting. Went a couple blocks to a wood line at 0330 hours. Pitch black. There was no circling, no casting and he was moving wth a purpose. Tracked to that wood line, he stopped at the wood line and lifted his head and started wafting. I looked at my cover officer and said he's air scenting. We're close. The dog held his breath and listened. I gave my warnings and took his actions as we are too close to the suspect who has the element of surprise and a position of ambush. I deployed the k9 and about 10 seconds later the suspect was located. What was different from this track then a training track, my adrenaline and energy that the dog could read and yes, the fear of the suspect. His afrenaline, his sweat, his fear. It wasn't a tough track, but I never saw my k9 display such perfect workability.

going back to your thread and the previous one about the real ducks vs fake ones and people telling me I'm wrong, I don't think I am. I'll break it down some more. i firmly.....let me say that again.....absolutely believe a nervous handler during a hunt test can very possibly work a dog up to levels not routinely trained. Absolutely. Now, drop the word nervous and use hyped up, excited, adrenaline ridden, anxious. Shoot, any emotion other then what the dog is routinely used to during training. This can result in less the favorable results from the dogs end. People can tell me the dog knows he's In a hunt test and he gets "emotional" and won't pick up ducks. Bullshit. There may be and probably are outside environmental and psychological stresses that are added that the dog is not used to, pair that will the handlers level of excitement and it's a recipie for other than usual results.

I think ink the only thing a handler can moderately control is themselves. If they stay as solid and composed as possible, showing real....REAL, not fake confidence, displaying an attitude that they usually show during training is what will result in the best possible outcome. Emotions go up and down a leash, when your having an off day, there's a good hands the dog will to.

for someone to type at their computer and tell me I'm making a guess and don't know what an excited competitive dog is because I have not competed in a field trial or hunt test is, complete bullshit.

The only difference here, those that compete in field trials and hunt tests with their dogs that experience levels of excitement that claim I have never experienced, train for a test. I work in a situation where You take all those outside influences and multiply them. do me a favor and put yourself in a life and death situation where your dog doesn't just pass or fail a test, but if he fails people get real life hurt, then tell me how to train all those aspects into training come into play. If I know one thing, it's the difference between a training dog and a dog in a real test. And every single influence the op spoke of, is real.

does the dog know he is In a competition, no, will the dog react differently to stimulus he's not used to, absolutely.
 
#72 ·
One other thing, I am by no means devaluing what anyone here does in competition. It's tough stuff. Training a dog and then competition. It's dedication and hard work. I got a little heated bc I was told I don't know excited dogs bc I havnt done retriever trials. What y'all do is keep this sport pure, perfect it and improve it and prove it on a regular basis. I'm here bc I want to compete eventually, bc like y'all I'm passionate and find happiness and joy in watching a dog do what they live to do and merely be a part of their life.
 
#75 ·
Yup, but they always know better. Some of the handlers here have been doing this for 40+ years. Yes, new or nervous handlers can affect the dogs' performance, but this is different. This is innate and present in the very essence of the dog competing. Look up Dr Ed. I think he knows a thing or two about handling more than a few famous field champions.
 
#77 ·
K9. If your point is

A). that a nervous handler can screw up a dog, then most all will agree.

B). That a dog can not tell the difference between a training day and a trial,then the majority will disagree. (I am with the majority as you can guess by the op here). David Didier (granddaddy) gives a good post about this. His point is that pre national training is probably the closest simulation to a trial. It makes good sense.

C). That a stressed dog in a trial is more likely to not pick up a bumper or a bird.... I don't even know what to make of that. Trials and tests should continue to use birds unless it becomes illegal due to forces outside our sport.

What at is your point? If you express it as A, B, or C (used the Oxford comma there Jordan!) that would be more clear.

If if you express it in a sentence, that would make it more clear.
 
#79 ·
I think we are just all arguing the same point. We call it a competition. Why? because we are testing our dogs against others, we are testing our skills as handlers/trainers against others, and we are competing as a team against other teams. We want the points, we keep score, and we are the judges. Can and do dogs act differently on a competition day, opposed to a training day? Yes. Is this because they know they are competing against other dogs and teams? Is this because Fido wants more passes/points then the next. No. The competition part is for us. The dogs are doing what they are trained to, what they love to and what they live to do....work. We add the stressors of competition on ourselves.
They will perform reliably under known and conditioned conditions and locations. Where the wheel falls off ( its an extreme example) is when there are other stressors involved such as, crowds, other dogs, THE HANDLER BEING NERVROUS, maybe different sounding guns, and most of all.....well maybe not most of all but definitely different locations. Im sure there are others, but Im not fully awake at the moment.
So, the dog can tell somethings different, that difference is what we call competition. Does the dog know its a competition, I don't think so. I do believe that the stressors of the competition for us is what does it to the dogs. A well trained dog will give 100% all the time, or should. I don't honestly know if a dog feels like they did bad or poorly compared to the previous week. I think they just like to go out and give it 100%, pass, fail, points or not. That other part is for us. And I believe its a much needed part. Helps the sport grow, improves the sport, training and hunting aspect. Helps evolve everything. Besides, if it was easy, everyone would do it. Its a test for a reason.
 
#80 ·
You still don't get it. You are vastly underestimating the power of the live flyer for a retriever in competition. They don't care about crowds, other dogs, different locations, guns, they care about getting that bird.
 
#103 ·
I agree that a flyer is a huge driver in the excitement and behavior of our dogs in trials.

I disagree strongly that the crowds, the other dogs,guns etc are not also factors. I think all of these things contribute to the true trial atmosphere.

The full trial atmosphere is difficult for many of us to replicate in training. Yet many of us shoot flyers in training.

My my original intent in starting this topic was that our dogs can smell a trial. The trial is a complex soup of scents that dogs learn to associate (quickly) with the ecstasy of trial day.

As David Didier pointed out, and it makes good sense, probably the best simulation of a trial for many at that level is the full-blown trial training atmosphere created in pre national groups.
 
#82 ·
I don't think I am. The stronger the primary source of attention is the more secondary distractions just become background noise. But discounting secondary distractions such as new training grounds and handlers etc is incorrect. Add to that a nervous or envious handler and the dog reads it. In any type of test
 
#83 ·
I don't think anyone is saying the dog understands the concept of competition, they understand they're at the FT and that life is different at the FT. Things are more exciting for reasons already listened and I doubt there's a dog thats run a FT that hasn't gotten away with something they wouldn't have in training. That doesn't mean they're not giving 100%, that doesn't mean the handler is nervous (do you think Danny Farmer, Mike Lardy, Jim Gonia, etc etc) are nervous every time they walk to the line?
 
#85 · (Edited)
Until you saddle up and ride, you're just all hat no cattle.

the reality is no one disagrees the dogs can feel the handlers stress/anxiety, but regardless of that fact dogs soon learn what a trial/test is. To deny that is to deny the intelligence of these animals. Obviously they don't cognitively conclude "I am at a field trial", but they most certainly discern a difference. Horses are the same way, I know as I spent decades competing on a national level with those as well. They know, to deny it is naive. One would think with your experience handling dogs you would give them more credit than you do.
 
#86 · (Edited)
I fully agree with you. The more trials the more experience the better the dog will perform. All I am saying is you cannot, as was stated, say dogs "mess" up because they know they are in a test. It is the outside influences that the dog has to perform with. Ultimately, as dogs learn with repition, the more trials they do the more the "feeling" hits em as they see pops loading up the truck and hit the fields. They know, they absolutely know it's time to work. Again, I think we're arguing the same point from different sides of the room
 
#96 ·
I fully agree with you. The more trials the more experience the better the dog will perform. All I am saying is you cannot, as was stated, say dogs "mess" up because they know they are in a test. It is the outside influences that the dog has to perform with. Ultimately, as dogs learn with repition, the more trials they do the more the "feeling" hits em as they see pops loading up the truck and hit the fields. They know, they absolutely know it's time to work. Again, I think we're arguing the same point from different sides of the room






Totally agree with what you are saying Kim but what I have bolded in K9's post above is what's going on here. It's Kinda like the difference between direct and indirect pressure.
 
#87 · (Edited)
Gooser, I'm surprised you haven't heard of diabetic alert dogs.

http://www.diabeticalertdog.com

When a person becomes nervous or anxious there is a physiological response. It's commonly referred to the "fight or flight" response. The hormones norepinephrine and epinephrine are released. These hormones cause sweating, heart rate increase, respiratory rate increase, pupil dilation and others.

There is no doubt a dog can sense that. They can do it by scent and our body language. I don't believe the dog can actually smell fear but if they can detect the slightest change in odor of a diabetic who's blood sugar is dropping they sure as heck can smell you sweat and all the other dogs. When you add that to our nervous body language then you can see why the dog might react differently than usual.
 
#89 ·
#90 ·
That second video is very interesting. I would have never thought the dog was timing the return of the husband based off smell. I would have bet it had all to do with the timing of the wife coming home.
 
#91 ·
When I train diabetic alert dogs the diabetic needs to, ahead of time, when blood sugar levels are low take a swab of her saliva, and store it. Same for high sugar levels. Then the dog is trained to respond when the odor is present.

Look guys, and gals, I'm not saying y'all are wrong. What in saying is that these dogs are so keen to us, they know our patterns probably better then us. It's a competition, and if you as a human aren't feeling the competitive spirit, which you should, your a rare breed. Your body language may be off to what the dog is normal too, things we don't notice. Dogs are living breathing sensors on the molecular level. To say that these outside factors do not play a role because all the dog wants to do is get a flyer, it's crazy. They all play a role. And the more they compete, the more the dogs experience these factors and more reliable they become. You have essentially turned a full on trial into a training session for the dog. Those body ques, the different pitch in your voice, the other dogs and new people, all the things that are "new" to a dog become more and more of a part of game. If you cannot reliably train in the environment you compete at, competing enough will be your training. You are now conditioning your dog to operate with your competitive spirit. That's all I'm trying to say.
 
#92 ·
When I train diabetic alert dogs the diabetic needs to, ahead of time, when blood sugar levels are low take a swab of her saliva, and store it. Same for high sugar levels. Then the dog is trained to respond when the odor is present.

Look guys, and gals, I'm not saying y'all are wrong. What in saying is that these dogs are so keen to us, they know our patterns probably better then us. It's a competition, and if you as a human aren't feeling the competitive spirit, which you should, your a rare breed. Your body language may be off to what the dog is normal too, things we don't notice. Dogs are living breathing sensors on the molecular level. To say that these outside factors do not play a role because all the dog wants to do is get a flyer, it's crazy. They all play a role. And the more they compete, the more the dogs experience these factors and more reliable they become. You have essentially turned a full on trial into a training session for the dog. Those body ques, the different pitch in your voice, the other dogs and new people, all the things that are "new" to a dog become more and more of a part of game. If you cannot reliably train in the environment you compete at, competing enough will be your training. You are now conditioning your dog to operate with your competitive spirit. That's all I'm trying to say.
Just wow, on pretty much that whole second paragraph, particularly the parts I bolded. Pretty much demonstrates you have not yet run HT/FT. It is not arrogance on our part, it is not that we think ours is harder or more valuable than anyone else's pursuits with their dogs, it is because it is different, and people who have not run HT/FT, simply do not understand the difference, and then they come on here and try to tell people who do know what they are talking about that they don't know what they are talking about, which is irritating, then they get all butthurt and pout and say we are snobs, rude or whatever.

People who use tests/trials to train their dogs tend to go home empty handed. Now, some will enter and use the test to work on something the dog is doing only at tests, like breaking, and will pick up the dog when it breaks, that is one use of a test/trial to "train" and it can be useful, if possibly long term and expensive, simply BECAUSE the training simulations have not been able to replicate a real testing environment for that dog . Testing challenges training, there are no corrections at tests/trials, other than "no, here" and back to the truck. Yes, handlers get jacked and can influence the dog, good handlers try to remain calm and even-keeled, but judges are setting up tests to challenge all those training concepts, many of which are contrary to the dog's natural instincts, particularly water. What smart dog doesn't think it faster and easier to run the bank vs swimming for long distances, to get the bird? What field dog isn't salivating over that juicy fresh duck just shot as a poison bird, but are told they can't have it and must go by it to get some bird they haven't seen? Much of what we train for makes no sense to the dog, conflicts with their instincts/brain, and at a test, they can learn pretty quick, they can give in to those instincts if they want, with no repercussions, other than "no here", and picked up from the test. That can work, to some extent, depending on the dog, but mostly we want the training to carry the dog through the test, not have to use the test to train the dog, since we mostly know how THAT goes. The use of a live flyer adds dimension to tests/trials, in ways some don't understand until they try it. Mixed bags, hen pheasants, etc, they all do their part to influence a test, and you need to train on all those influences to have a prayer at beating other dogs who are being trained on them. Or just be really really lucky to get that super exceptional perfect dog that needs no training, I guess.
 
#95 ·
This is a confusing thread. From what has been argued (relentlessly), it appears that if one were to enter and compete often enough, they wouldn't need to train......as much.

Training on the job is often extremely inefficient and very expensive (plus illegal) regards, Jim

p.s. "Say what, Judge, can I run that mark....again.....from over here? Could you wait 'til I put this e-collar on, too?
 
#102 ·
I don't see that being said at all Jim. If you cannot train in the atmosphere of a trial (direct pressure) then you just better be more prepared than those that do and then the dog will just have to learn how to deal with the atmosphere as it goes (indirect pressure). If it does not go well then you better go back and work on it before you enter another otherwise you are just shooting yourself in the foot. Every trial you run is training hopefully progressing if not you need to train more. Even the best trained dog is learning from every trial they run.
Nancy it's not so much that you are training at a trial it is more of a trial is training
, again indirect pressure. At HT I have heard " he never does that in training" many times but that is due to inexperience and knowledge on the handlers part. Don't think I have ever heard that at a trial.
Training at a trial (shouldn't say that) learning from a trial makes more sense than internet dog training. I find it very hard to communicate as well as understand internet dog training. So often people read something different into what I am trying to say. That's why I only have 1600 posts since 2003 instead of 6000. On that note it has warmed to a balmy 28 degrees and the sun is starting to peek through the clouds so I better go out and do some real dog training.
 
#97 ·
There is an assumption going on here that dogs learn from training at a trial, and in somewhat of a linear manner, when actually the opposite happens, and is why so many people in HT get in trouble as they progress. There is often an erosion in obedience, and in some dogs immediately, without the necklace. How many times do we hear "he never did that before in training", so if you use running in competition as a training venue, there is no ability to correct and learn other than "NO HERE", which is not specific. With very young dogs and dogs that are run consecutively, it erodes even quicker.
 
#104 · (Edited)
Dogs sense a Trial is coming way way before you realize it and way before they smell it. At home you will clue them by doing something you only ever do before a Trial. Could be anything. If your dog is camped out with a pro their clue may be the Thursday truck wash.
As far as smell you would be surprised the kind of cues they pick up on.
I have an older retired dog. Haven't been to a Trial or training day in very long time. Few weeks ago driving down 75 to florida, him in back seat, I noticed a big chassis mount towing trailer going the opposite direction. A moment after truck passed my dog jumped up and got a little nutso. Guess we passed right thru scent cone of that 30 dog truck.
For the most part while trialing may dogs were laid back right up until we pulled off on a 2 track.
 
#106 ·
Having "competed" in both Hunt Test and K-9 on the street, I see both sides of the argument. I have seen dogs react differently at a test and yes I believe a trial/test can be sensed by a dog.

Lets use the retriever not picking up a duck example; I can tell you from training with literally hundreds of police narcotic dogs that I have seen some of the best street worthy K-9's "blank" large amounts of drugs the first several times they are exposed to this in a training environment. These same K-9's can run luggage all day long and consistently locate a gram of cocaine but some how get "sensory overload" when it comes to large amount.

Now take into account trials are "large amounts" of every sight, scent, sound, for our retrievers. I believe there is a similar reaction from our dogs. Throw in the fact that often a K-9 handler does not know the amount or the possibility of "sensory overload" so my opinion is you can take the handler out of the equation.

We often train weekly with as many as 20 other K-9 units from across the state. You can see the excitement, dogs that normally do not bark in the kennel are barking and spinning. I see dogs more vocal and energetic. We try to express on everyone maintain as much control as you can possibly get in training and expect to loose some control on the "Street aka Trial"

I think a high energy handler trainer will often have a high energy dog no matter the sport. We all have experienced the super high energy lab that you have to stop 40 yards before you "expect" him to fade a line. I think the phrase handle a fast dog slow and a slow dog fast was quoted by somebody who understands or picked up that our dogs read and feed off our emotions/actions

Now after saying the above I can attest to the fact that my street K-9 can and loves to smell fear. You can get 3 people out of a car and he will focus on the person with warrants or the most anxiety. I work in an inner city environment with many smells, sounds, sights, distractions and can tell you that if your are pumping adrenaline "fear" their is nothing about these distractions that distract a K-9. Now take an elderly patient with Dementia and have them walk the same track without any adrenaline or fear and the track just got much more difficult. You will see your dog raise his head off the track for these distractions and you must work through them.

Chris and I have had hours of conversation discussing the training methods and philosophy between retrievers and police K-9 and never once have we argued. Its awesome that their are so many different methods and ideas. I will tell you having prior retriever training experience has made me successful many times on the streets. Most K-9 officers do not understand little things such as fading with wind, terrain, or hunting\searching the top or bottom of hillside because they have never been informed of these variables. My retriever experience has enabled my to understand how to put my K-9 into the position to succeed.

You guys and gals are awesome and these "discussions make us all better trainers..
 
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