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Thread: E-collar vs no e collar training

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    I have seen non collar trained dogs do some pretty exciting work, like River Oaks Corky (highest point all age dog of all time), and many others. I think there is a misconception that non collar dogs can't compete with collar trained dogs. It might not be as convenient but it can be done. Everybody warns that the e-collar doesn't teach the dog and that it is just another tool and that is absolutely correct. The main ingredient to having a high performing dog is the capability of its trainer.
    Not to try and discredit Corky but an open of that era in time wouldn't make a good Q today....I ran Q's in the early 80's that Sr hunt test dogs of today are doing longer tougher marks and blinds....The distance and control of today makes them ( opens ) far more difficult and harder to train without a collar...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  2. #12
    Senior Member Dustin D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunssmoke3217 View Post
    Hello all! I have a 5 month old BLF and my goal is to test and run trials at highest level possible. This is my first pup I am training alone and I have always wanted to train my pup old school -- low force. Ihave been working with trainers and 90 percent of them use e collars. There dogs respond very well to their training techniques. My questions are and i am fine with bias opinions. What are the positives and negatives of e collar. Can I compete at a high level non e collar? I want a happy retriever and some of the dogs in the past I have been around have not been happy retrievers probably due to misuse of e collar. ANY suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
    What training philosophy(program) are you following right now?

    I know many folks, who AFTER watching Bill Hillmann train with the collar, changed their mind about just how NOT cruel and how effective the collar really can be.

    I always think about it like the hand on the back of my dogs neck. I DO NOT squeeze hard to inflict pain, just sort of direct him(enforce) with a firm grip one way or another after commands, which gives him confidence and assuredness in the command given.(He knows what I want)

    But with the collar, even at the farthest of distances, he knows my hand is still right there on the back of his neck ready to reinforce any command given. That’s just my mere way of looking at it to understand it. Hopefully it doesn’t confuse you.


    Here's Chris Akin explaining the basic concept of why;



    Also see TriTronics 1 & 2

    Part 1;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePCGgYVAyM

    Part 2;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMgzUJ-k3ow


  3. #13
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post

    Not to try and discredit Corky but an open of that era in time wouldn't make a good Q today....I ran Q's in the early 80's that Sr hunt test dogs of today are doing longer tougher marks and blinds....The distance and control of today makes them ( opens ) far more difficult and harder to train without a collar...Steve S
    With all due respect Steve that is absurd, Corky, Honcho, Rascal, Piper and Kate were great dogs and would dominate today the same way they did then
    Your reference is like saying John Unitss or Jim Brown couldn't play in the NFL today
    Distance is just that, doesn't mean the tests are tougher, the grounds back then had much more cover and the judges knew how to place birds correctly without using unrecognized distances
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    I was also debating whether to use the ecollar or not. I worked on heel for 3 weeks some days 2 sessions. She did great but was a step behind or a step forward often especially off check cord. After introducing the collar and 3 sessions of heel work she is now in position at all times off leash. It made a huge difference. Just make sure you follow a program to do it properly. I used duck dog basics it does a good job of explaining why and how to use it.

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    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Here are my thoughts as to some simple pros and cons:

    Pros
    1) Todays collars are very flexable with fingertip control for "nick" versus "continuous", instant dial for intensity and a low, medium or high, with practice all is done in a fraction of a second.
    2) The collar becomes a long distance extension of the whip stick or whiffle ball bat which is used in yard work.
    3) Used properly dogs learn fast and with less pressure than the evil old days. This is especially helpful with some sensitive breeds which didn't hold up well to the old "in your face" heavy handed correction.

    Cons
    1) It takes prudence and training to use properly. It is very easy to create problems that can haunt your dog for life, such as creating a big banana around a gun by burning a dog when it goes back to an old fall. Dogs have a long memory for "hot spots". You have to be careful, then remember where you created a hot spot and understand how your dog deals with it.
    2) Don't use a collar if you are prone to lose your temper. Nothing is worse than a dog sitting there screaming while you hold your finder down on the button out of anger.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    With all due respect Steve that is absurd, Corky, Honcho, Rascal, Piper and Kate were great dogs and would dominate today the same way they did then
    Your reference is like saying John Unitss or Jim Brown couldn't play in the NFL today
    Distance is just that, doesn't mean the tests are tougher, the grounds back then had much more cover and the judges knew how to place birds correctly without using unrecognized distances
    Bon, I agree with you that the dogs you mention were great dogs in their day and would be great dogs today. If an exact clone of Corky were born today and landed at Handjem, Farmers, Ecketts, Rorems, Gonias or other great pro's I have no doubt he would be placing and winning trials in due time. However the title of the thread is E-collar vs non e-collar training.

    Trials of today have changed & gotten tougher in areas other than just distance. A more fitting question on this thread would be whether the great dogs of the past would be as competitive , and dominant in todays game if they were trained using the same tools, trainers and training techniques of their earlier era. Corky was kind of on the cusp of the intro to the ecollar, but the collar and its application have advanced by leaps and bounds since then.

    I don't know the answer to my hypothetical question; but my guess would be that Corky would get through most 1st series, but would find each successive series progressively more difficult due to the limitations of the tools and training of his era.

    I'd be very interested to hear yours and others opinions

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    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    I have been using collars for 20+ years. A wise man told me when long before I got a collar that if you can't train a dog without a collar you cannot train one with a collar.

    Now that does not mean you don't need a collar to compete in FT's or that you can train a dog as well without a collar as you can with one. What it means is you must have the skills to train a dog in the first place. A collar is a tool and nothing more. In the right hands it is probably the best tool a trainer can have. In the wrong hands it could be the worst.
    I would suggest the unhappy dogs you have seen were the result of a trainer who did not understand the advice above. I have never had a dog that was unhappy to put the collar on, in fact just the opposite.
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    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    With all due respect Steve that is absurd, Corky, Honcho, Rascal, Piper and Kate were great dogs and would dominate today the same way they did then
    Your reference is like saying John Unitss or Jim Brown couldn't play in the NFL today
    Distance is just that, doesn't mean the tests are tougher, the grounds back then had much more cover and the judges knew how to place birds correctly without using unrecognized distances
    Bon
    I agree. Great dogs in their day and had they been here today and had collar training they probably would have been equal to the great dogs of today.
    Jim and Johnny U, I would give a maybe. Jim Brown would be better suited as a linebacker today and Johnny is borderline small at 6 foot for a QB today. Hard to pass over a line with loaded with 6 foot 6 giants. More than anything else the speed of todays players has passed them by.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    With all due respect Steve that is absurd, Corky, Honcho, Rascal, Piper and Kate were great dogs and would dominate today the same way they did then
    Your reference is like saying John Unitss or Jim Brown couldn't play in the NFL today
    Distance is just that, doesn't mean the tests are tougher, the grounds back then had much more cover and the judges knew how to place birds correctly without using unrecognized distances
    With all due respect is like saying "go jump in a lake." Fact is they were great dogs. However its not nearly the same game as it was 40 years ago. They were great at that game. How well they would do in today's game there is no way to tell. Could the Celtics of 60's beat the Lakers of the 80's or the Bulls of the 90's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    With all due respect Steve that is absurd, Corky, Honcho, Rascal, Piper and Kate were great dogs and would dominate today the same way they did then
    Your reference is like saying John Unitss or Jim Brown couldn't play in the NFL today
    Distance is just that, doesn't mean the tests are tougher, the grounds back then had much more cover and the judges knew how to place birds correctly without using unrecognized distances

    I have seen an evolution of the test develop from over the early 80's and they have change a lot...How many retired guns did you see back then ..? What is the norm in the open now..? At one time a poison bird was just that ...never go back and pick it up ...easy to train for...Some are being ask to go back and get it now...The game and the way we train for it has changed...Pre collar days was a tough row to hoe for most open dogs...Control was always a big factor because of the limitations of tools at ones disposal and the ability to use them....One can not take anything away from those great dogs of those days...but ..if they were trained by the same methods as back then I doubt if they would be competitive in today's game ....Given the benefit of a good modern collar program they would probably still excel in the game...You still need the genetics those dogs carried to be a winner....No matter what the sport we can not compare apples and oranges...The great golfers of days gone by couldn't hold the light for the guys and big Bertha today ...But ,give them Bertha and now we are on equal ground...OR ..better yet give the guys today the ole persimmon sticks and see how they do...
    Some one commented about not being able to train a dog first without the collar...In most programs today the commands or actions are first taught by some manual or luring (treat ) method..then the collar is over layered as a reinforcement tool...most do not teach with the collar, I believe...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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