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Thread: Labradors - are we splitting the breed?

  1. #41
    Senior Member suepuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    If your goals are based on traits you desire to produce, not just on the titles assigned by others who may have different ideals in mind, then you can find the quest more rewarding. A Lab who is pointed in both field trials and the show ring would be a HUGE accomplishment, I think. The show judges who rewarded the dog would have a good image in their minds of a working physique worthy of the Standard; and the field judges would be acknowledging the dog's working ability in spite of the fact that he may look a little different than those they are most used to seeing. That would prove that there are some very good dog people representing both perspectives.

    Meanwhile, it serves the breed well, if the focus is on the common ground that is shared by all who love the breed (whatever your breed is). If there is any dim hope of any bridging of the gap, it lies with cultivating good will rather than disdain, as there is always something to learn.
    Gerry, the whole thing you wrote is the best thing I've ever read about the whole situation and fits with my scenario.

    Sharon also said it well "In the beginning, competitions were used to find the best dogs of a breed. Today, dogs are bred for specific competitions rather than for the breed standard first and then competitions, and I don't see that changing, sadly. "

    Thank you. There is middle ground if we but look for it.

    Sue Puff
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  2. #42
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Hah!..Stick my neck out and above the parapet!..
    Post on RTF ,with y'all who have retrievers that can do fantastic retrieves with titles!
    ......
    A Labrador is a Retriever!...If the programmes y'all promote infallible,surely the programme will work with any dog?....especially a retriever ?
    .....
    Anna comes from a kennel that has won numerous show titles and represented at Crufts many times. In fact,this young bitch of 14 months had just come back from the show ring a week before the first clip!..So they can and are capable of doing it!...?
    Anyhow ..I said to the breeder/owner they could! after two weeks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIXGFEDnP0g

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAEd3zAwno

    Some doctors of dogs would copter up a far more complex explanation than I ,for the achievement of the dog in the clip, but when it comes down to it!..It's just get out there and get that game!..Is it not?
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  3. #43
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    Some doctors of dogs would copter up a far more complex explanation than I
    pure genius!
    HOLD FAST
    Winter is coming
    Duck hunters like other duck hunters at a Holiday party, cocktail hour or a school play..........they hate each other @ 5am

  4. #44
    Senior Member GoldenSail's Avatar
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    If you accept the status quo then things will never change.

  5. #45
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    I wonder how many posters to this topic have owned and/or bred a Field Champion. Those who have not have no idea what a difficult accomplishment that is. Anyone who believes they are up to the task of being the breeder of a Dual Champion Labrador should work on conquering the FC part before considering the CH part.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Tim Mc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Lots of words theorize this belief or that belief to support a certain position on this issue but nothing speaks like photos of past dual champions - and they all look very much like many of our best field champions today:

    I've seen this photo before on RTF. Those are four of the most handsome dogs I've ever seen. Especially like FC Muscles! I'd like to walk to the line with him by my side!
    Tim

  7. #47
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    One of the few things that we have accomplished in the field trial breeding program and not thought much about until reading this thread, was being the breeder of a FC and a FC/AFC. The only breeding I ever did as a Labrador owner was breeding my FC/AFC as a nearly seven year old bitch. I kept one of the pups and my co-owner including myself made his
    FC/AFC and was awarded a breeders award from AKC. The second male from the litter made his FC. There were six pups in the litter and a third became a HRCH MH and pointed all age dog. I owned and trained him. I took that breeding for granted and mostly forgot about it. Dr Ed hit it on the head, the goals should be trying to breed field champions before having pipe dreams about dual champions. The breed long ago split.
    Earl Dillow

  8. #48
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    I wonder how many posters to this topic have owned and/or bred a Field Champion. Those who have not have no idea what a difficult accomplishment that is. Anyone who believes they are up to the task of being the breeder of a Dual Champion Labrador should work on conquering the FC part before considering the CH part.
    I am doing that Doc, training with Pat several times a year , just about ready to run Derby.....I really do have a plan! That is part of the 30 years!
    Everybody has to have a dream! Life would be pretty boring without
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

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  9. #49
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    Our retriever club had Frances O. Smith DVM over to speak at our club last night. She is the current VP of the Labrador Retriever Parent Club. In her presentation, she mentioned that the labrador retriever is one of the least likely breeds to have another Dual Champion because of the seperation of the breed. The parent club looks for three things in judging - block type head, thick double coat, and an otter-like tail. She mentioned some of the biggest differences between show champions and field champions are the coat (slick coat vs. thick double coat), weight (most show champions are obese), tail (tail should be parallel to the back and not curve up or down), and overall body proportions (i.e. show dogs usually have short legs). When she is looking at buying a lab, she looks for somewhere in the middle. In her opinion, both ends of the spectrum are getting away from the standard description of a lab and breeding is focusing on requests of the buyers (i.e. color, temperament, etc).

    Fran - if your on this forum, hopefully I did your presentation justice!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LabGuy6 View Post
    Our retriever club had Frances O. Smith DVM over to speak at our club last night. She is the current VP of the Labrador Retriever Parent Club. In her presentation, she mentioned that the labrador retriever is one of the least likely breeds to have another Dual Champion because of the seperation of the breed. The parent club looks for three things in judging - block type head, thick double coat, and an otter-like tail. She mentioned some of the biggest differences between show champions and field champions are the coat (slick coat vs. thick double coat), weight (most show champions are obese), tail (tail should be parallel to the back and not curve up or down), and overall body proportions (i.e. show dogs usually have short legs). When she is looking at buying a lab, she looks for somewhere in the middle. In her opinion, both ends of the spectrum are getting away from the standard description of a lab and breeding is focusing on requests of the buyers (i.e. color, temperament, etc).

    Fran - if your on this forum, hopefully I did your presentation justice!
    Yours & other verbal responses sound reasonable, but the answer is not somehow a compromise of appearance, i.e, something in the middle. Instead of verbal descriptions (which generally are an attempt to influence for a particular position on the issue), look at the photos of the dual champions that we have had. I posted a rather famous one of the Grangemead dogs. This "look" can be found today at most any AKC FT event. It may not be the typical look of every FT competitor but it is far from rare. But the problem is that a Grangemead dog today wouldn't get to first base in a show. But the show enthusiasts don't want to hear that they have gone a different direction. Show enthusiasts have abandoned the rule that form follows function. Ed said it right, focus on developing an FC then look at appearance. that was the Grangemead approach but it won't fly today among the show crowd.
    David Didier, GA

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