The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 2 of 21 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 208

Thread: Labradors - are we splitting the breed?

  1. #11
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    NE Texas
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Labs split breed? Lets see we got the show labs, we got the field labs, we got the agility labs, we got the jumpin jack flashlabs, and we got the pointing labs. Nah we ain't got no stinkin split breed labs your thinking about those fluffy dogs not labs.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  2. #12
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    6,169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyRetrievers View Post
    I guess what concerns me is that less scrupulous breeders could breed a "champion" show dog with an MNH or NFC dog and create a creature which was a "labrador retriever" but served neither purpose. How is this ok?
    This situation exists in just about every working and sporting breed in existence; and, as mentioned, the tendency can be seen in just about every country as well. Human nature is what it is ... people get into "specialization" in their hobby which leads them to the venues that most fit with what their innate likes and dislikes.

    While I don't favor the extreme of the short-legged, heavy-bodied Labs, some of them still can do a pretty good job hunting. Their physical limitations may make them more suitable for certain types of hunting than others.

    We also have to accept that both show and field trials are stylized extremes of the breeds' original purposes. Human nature at work again. For retrievers, they all started out with mid-size bodies (because that size was versatile) and strong retrieving instincts, backed up with intelligence and temperaments that allowed them to work with other dogs when necessary. As society evolved into being less dependent on hunting, keeping dogs became more of a pleasure than a necessity. Does anyone really "need" a car as fast a Ferrari? Probably not, but for some people, owning such a car is a pleasure and a hobby.

    Yet, while the retriever breeds started out with these common traits, we still have multiple retriever breeds So, is a Lab better than a Chessie? I wouldn't want to be the one to say that very loudly if there are a bunch of Chessie owners standing around Why did Lord Tweedmouth feel a need for the Golden Retriever, when Flat Coats and Labs already existed? He wasn't interested in a "pretty" dog. He just wanted a "meat dog". Game was a cash crop that fed the Lords' families, their estate workers, and their guests. If he had wanted a lapdog, they already had them.

    So, even when working aspects were the primary basis for the breeds, there were still multiple breeds. Did they have different styles of doing their job? Different strengths and weaknesses?

    There are some breeders, in many of the breeds, who tread in the middle ground. The appearance of those dogs is somewhere between the dogs who "show" and the dogs who dominate in performance titles. Their levels of skill among those dogs may not be the sure bet for an FC-AFC, but the dogs are quite capable of doing their breed's working job (am including working breeds as well, not just sporting breeds).

    For the retriever breeds, the hunt tests have encouraged more show dogs to explore their original purpose. The MH who may not be capable of field trial work, may still make a good hunting companion for most hunters. Let's not forget that hunt tests can also offer financial backing to clubs whose primary founding may have been for field trials. So, this helps continue the pursuit of the highest levels of field skills that field trials provide.

    While field emphasis will generally rule out, by natural selection, the dogs who are poorly structured, that is not an "absolute". There will still be the highly driven dogs who may lack the structure that is most "durable", and are more subject to certain injuries. Having a broader gene pool to draw upon could help overcome those flaws. For the "show" breeder who seeks more emphasis on working ability, they can draw upon the gene pool where that has been emphasized.

    When there are plenty of animal activists who believe owning a dog is "exploitation" of another species, and would like to eliminate the whole thing, it seems wise for us to be tolerant of all of the varied community that is in favor of dog ownership. I have no illusion that the breeds are not split between show and performance, or that the split will get mended, but there is commonality to be valued.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Winola, Pa
    Posts
    2,142

    Default

    Yes we are .....NO WHERE did you say that you were looking for a balanced well put together dog with a nice head and coat . All you stated was performance work only. The show people are looking for well angulated , dogs with substance and often overlook performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by PennyRetrievers View Post
    Recently we bred our female with a really great FT dog. This is the first time I've ever bred a dog, and so I was reflecting back on the traits that I had been looking for in a stud dog: I didn't care much about color, but I wanted a dog with immense desire. I wanted a dog that was rock steady, and took direction well with it's handler. I wanted a dog with great prey-drive and one who had a reputation as a great marker. Our female is really a looker (who doesn't think their dog is handsome?) and so we wanted to produce puppies that would have that American Field-Bred labrador look to them: muscular body intense gaze, and strong bone structure.

    While I was doing research a few weeks ago, I looked high and low. I looked at almost every labrador in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, and Louisana. There was a ton of talent out there. Occasionally though I'd run into a dog listed "at stud" whose breeder would brag about immensly - as a show dog. Some of these animals almost didn't look like Labradors. They were short, stocky, and sometimes obese. In talking to other dog folks I know, I'd find out that many of these show people were incredibly happy with a dog that could pass an AKC JH test - in other words, some of these Labs, didn't posess the desire to hunt or the ability to do field work beyond a few single retrieves.

    Now, I'm certainly not trying to knock on the Show Dog people. Personally, I have no desire to ever show a dog in a ring, but I understnad that people have dogs for all sorts of different reasons - and that Labs can be sucessful in a variety of disciplines. But the original intent of the breed was to retrieve dead birds. How can we claim that a short, squatty, blockheaded dog, is the same breed as a dog as the incredibly high-powered, very lean atheletes that compete in sporting events?

    Are we splitting the breed?
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

  4. #14
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brookings, South Dakota
    Posts
    6,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by duk4me View Post
    Labs split breed? Lets see we got the show labs, we got the field labs, we got the agility labs, we got the jumpin jack flashlabs, and we got the pointing labs. Nah we ain't got no stinkin split breed labs your thinking about those fluffy dogs not labs.

    What on earth is a jumping jack flash lab? See my sig line...

    If you met the dawg, you'd know why I named him that...
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

  5. #15
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    NE Texas
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    What on earth is a jumping jack flash lab? See my sig line...

    If you met the dawg, you'd know why I named him that...
    The whole post was a joke. The jumping jack flash lab was a joking reference to dock jumping not your dog.

    We breed dogs, horses, cows, etc selfishly for the goals we wish to accomplish. For that reason there will always be a splitting of most breeds. Afterall didn't they all come from wolves?

    that being said and since I haven't met Jumping Jack Flash why did you name him that. Enquiring minds want to know.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  6. #16
    Senior Member PennyRetrievers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Lawton, OK
    Posts
    189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget Bodine View Post
    The show people are looking for well angulated , dogs with substance and often overlook performance.
    But my point is that the original purpose of the dog was to retrieve, not go around in circles in a ring and look good (not that there's anything wrong with that...). Both types of Lab have really changed the breed. All I'm saying is that what I call a Labrador, is NOT the same dog as what Show folks call a Labrador.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Winola, Pa
    Posts
    2,142

    Default

    MY point was when you pick for performance only, you get a type of dog,
    when you pick for structure only, you get a type of dog,
    when you pick for both you get in the middle.....which is why the breed is split. The middle does not usually win in either venue
    Last edited by Bridget Bodine; 05-13-2013 at 03:39 PM.
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

  8. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    webster,sd
    Posts
    90

    Default

    I think you'll find that the show dog may be closer to the actual breed standard than many trial type dogs. Go back and read the history of the Labrador retriever. They were medium sized dogs built strong in legs, chest, head etc. I care very much about the looks of my dogs. I have seen many dogs that perform in some sort of game or another and they are gettinq quite unattractive. May as well get a grey hound. I do agree the show lab is too short and robust but I am seeing some trial dogs built for speed with skinny heads, noses and legs etc..very off the standard and ugly!

  9. #19
    Senior Member Dustin D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Lake Charles, LA (Area)
    Posts
    1,777

    Default

    I think we see Retreivers and/or Labradors all the time











  10. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    webster,sd
    Posts
    90

    Default

    boy those first two are kinda pretty but man...can they even move? Would hate to see one in a big cattail slough chasing roosters here in SD

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •